this post was submitted on 30 Sep 2025
145 points (72.4% liked)
Memes
52622 readers
783 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 6 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Okay I would just upvote and move on, but you're clearly baiting with that title so if it's alright with you let's have some banter :P
If I say that
but I also say that I still don't like the Chinese state because I don't consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
Am I a "lib"?
"Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production" is a syndicalist distortion of socialism. Workers should control the means of production, as in their operation should be based on popular consensus, but "ownership" suggests something like cooperatives (or, you know, syndicates), which operate on the same market system and a permutation of petite-bourgeois races to the bottom that we see under capitalism.
The people must control the state, "win the battle of democracy," and via their control of the state dictate what happens to the means of production. Specific ownership is a secondary concern, though I agree with what I assume your position is, that the bourgeoisie have been granted too much power and authority in China.
We've shown many times how the PRC is a worker-owned-and-controlled econoxy, and how the worker's congresses function in action.
If you don't consider any actually existing country that's trying to build socialism "up to your standard", then you should re-evaluate the basis of your opposition. If you kow-tow to every western-supremacist talking point about how Vietnam, the PRC, the DPRK, and Cuba "aren't doing socialism correctly because they aren't as smart as [insert western-supremacist marxist here], then yes, you are a liberal.
I disagree: they could've used real photos instead of AI generated images.
e.g. I looked at a map and picked the first large city I saw that I've never heard of, then looked up some images: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Nanjing%2C+Jiangsu%2C+China&iar=images&t=h_
But also: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-08/china-s-50-lane-traffic-jam-is-every-commuter-s-worst-nightmare
Pretty sure that's a toll booth. They widen to allow cars to queue and then narrow back down to transition back to free flowing traffic. It's not a 50 lane highway merging to 20 lanes, it's a 20 lane highway widening into a 50 lane queuing area and then merging back to 20 lanes to continue being a highway.
Here's one in the glorious freedom country:
(Source)
Is this a 20 lane highway merging into a 3 lane bridge?
But yes, China does have a car dependency problem. Something the government has acknowledged and is implementing aggressive policies to combat. From building full metro systems in all major cities in the same time it takes NIMBYs in America to shoot down a single line, to high speed rail, to literally restricting who can drive on what days based on whether you have an odd or even first number on your license plate. What's America doing? Oh right, doubling down on car dependency and killing what little alternatives there were and calling people who speak out against it "woke."
Kinda? What do you think socialism looks like, if not the PRC? What about the PRC makes it not "genuine worker control," or more broadly, Marxism-Leninism not "genuine worker control?"