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Engineering is not professional? What a laughable sack of shit. We're going to have a lot of work ahead to undo this damage.
I look forward to improving our systems better than they'd previously been when trump and project 2025 showed up.
This is actually the one that I would agree with (edit: see below), if the difference is "professional" vs. "academic." I certainly wouldn't call a natural science degree professional, and if you're in a research institution studying some form of engineering I'd probably put you in the same category. Just my experience/opinion though (and the rest of the exclusions are super stupid, I agree).
Edit: from the replies, this is referring to Professional Engineering; in my corner of the world, "Engineer" is an overloaded term that generally means electrical, mechanical, software, and sometimes computer engineer. My comment was referring to these engineers, who are rarely licensed and study alongside scientists in school. I completely agree with parent in the context of "professional engineering" (I mean...it's right there in the name...).
Engineers are literally required to licensed by the state as "Professional Engineers" in order to do their job (or at least they have to be supervised by someone who is), just like doctors and lawyers are. If that doesn't count as professional, WTF does?!
I was interpreting the quoted text as encompassing all engineering fields, e.g., EE, mechanical, computer, etc.
If that's not the case and this is for specific professional engineering degrees then yep, I certainly agree with you.
I'm a state-licensed engineer, a professional engineer..
Even if your other points were valid, this has direct impact on people's income for years after they graduate.
I'll go further and point out that in general, we need art as well as science, not one vs the other.
E: No dude, look at how the word is defined: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional, licensed or not, engineering or any degree requiring training is professional.
I was interpreting the quoted text as encompassing all engineering fields, e.g., EE, mechanical, computer, etc.
If that's not the case and this is for specific professional engineering degrees then yep, I certainly agree with you.
I still think all engineering is professional, as is nursing etc. Electronic, mechanical, computer, all of em.
Look man, just go by the agreed-upon definition of the word: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional
A professional degree is historically different from an academic degree though. Math, chemistry, physics, biology, computer science---these typically produce (well compensated!) professionals, but they are not professional schools.
I am professional; I get paid to do the kinds of things that I did in grad school. But afaik no one would say I hold a professional degree.
All of this is besides the point of course---our student loan system shouldn't disqualify people based on these sorts of semantics.
Using the same wiki you've linked, notice the word "accreditation" as key to the concept of a professional degree, with which you'll then note all engineers who graduate in the US must be. Yes, all. ABET is our accreditation body. Thus, we are professional by your own definition.
Beyond that, one can also be licensed, but that is already in addition to already being an accredited professional by way of at least an accredited baccalaureate.
Finally, I'm going to be a little rude here, this example of useless pedantry is particularly why I left academia with prejudice. It's been nice educating you on these unimportant minutea, take care.