this post was submitted on 29 Aug 2025
820 points (99.9% liked)
Technology
74768 readers
2649 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related news or articles.
- Be excellent to each other!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, this includes using AI responses and summaries. To ask if your bot can be added please contact a mod.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
- Accounts 7 days and younger will have their posts automatically removed.
Approved Bots
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
This is exactly the kind of government overreach people like me have been screaming about since, in my case, the 1990s.
"I told you so" just doesn't feel so good when what's happening is nothing less than the entirety of human freedom and liberty is being eroded before our very eyes, and those who disagree with it get labeled as kooks, and accused of hating whatever "oppressed group" of the day is in vogue.
I too have been screaming about private online since the 90s. I have an intuitive reaction that sort of mirrors yours.
But can I ask you a question?
And it’s one that I’m asking because I genuinely wish to learn from others.
Because I can’t quite see the difference and maybe there’s something I’m missing.
Why is it not government overreach to ensure pornography isn’t sold to minors in an adult video store, but government overreach to have the same expectation of online pornography providers?
I would love your enlightened view on this so I can learn from it. Because I can’t quite see the difference.
I understand that many adults go into an adult video store and need not prove their age, because they clearly look like adults.
And so the difference here is that everyone have to prove their age online, even people that are clearly adults by how they look.
But entering a pornography website is the equivalent of entering an adult video store where the clerk cannot see you, cannot hear your voice. In that world I would also expect the clerk to check every purchase as they would have no other means of assessing the buyer’s age.
Or maybe you think that adult videos should be sold to everyone and it’s the very concept that pornography is restricted to minors that you disagree with. I don’t personally hold that view but then I can least understand why you would also reject online age verification.
Or maybe you think it is ineffective and won’t make a difference. That argument I most definitely agree with, but how we choose to implement a law, and whether it’s effective, is two different discussions I would posit.
Edit: I love that I’m getting downvoted for expressing a POV respectfully.
There is no possible way to actually stop teenagers accessing online porn that doesn't require such a massive invasion of privacy that it leaves no safe way for adults to access it. To go with your adult video store analogy, it's like if the store staff would have to accompany you home and watch you watching the porn to check there wasn't anyone standing behind you also looking at the screen, and while they were there, they were supposed to take notes on everything they saw. Even if they had no interest in doing anything nefarious, a criminal could steal their notebook and blackmail all their customers with the details it contained, and there'd be enough proof that there wouldn't be any way to plausibly claim the blackmailer had just made everything up.
If you want to prove someone on the Internet is a real adult and not a determined teenager, you need lots of layers. E.g. if you just ask for a photo of an ID card, that can be defeated by a photo of someone else's ID card, and a video of a face can be defeated by a video game character (potentially even one made to resemble the person whose ID has been copied). You need to prove there's an ID card that belongs to a real person and that it's that person who is using it, and that's both easier to fake than going to a store with a fake ID (if you look young, they'll be suspicious of your ID) or Mission Impossible mask, and unlike in a store, the customer can't see that you're not making a copy of the ID card for later blackmail or targeted advertisements. No one would go back to a porn shop that asked for a home address and a bank statement to prove it.
Another big factor is that if there's a physical shop supplying porn to children, the police will notice and stop it, but online, it's really easy to make a website and fly under the radar. It's pretty easy for sites that don't care about the law to provide an indefinite supply of porn to children, and once that's happening, there's no reason to think that it's only going to be legal porn just being supplied to the wrong people.
Overall, the risk of showing porn to children doesn't go down very much, but the risk of showing blackmailable data to criminals and showing particularly extreme and illegal porn to children goes up by a lot. Protecting children from extreme material, e.g. videos of real necrophilia and rape, which are widely accepted to be seriously harmful, should be a higher priority than protecting a larger number from less extreme material that the evidence says is less harmful, if at all. Even if it's taken as fact that any exposure to porn is always harmful to minors, the policies that are possible to implement in the real world can't prevent it, just add either extra hassle or opportunities for even worse things to happen. There hasn't been any proposal by any government with a chance of doing more good than harm.
In Finland you could handle this by having people authenticate using their online bank passwords. A LOT of government stuff already works that way, so it would require almost no extra coding at least over here. I wonder why it cannot be done the same way in England?
Sort of the same system they’re building in Denmark.
You will log into MitID (myID), authenticate with the MitID app, then be issued a bunch of ZKP tokens which you’ll burn off against age verification services. No trace, fully authenticated, fully trusted, damn near impossible to fool.
i mean, that seems like a solveable problem. either build a national (internationl?) or have some reciprocity with the identification systems that allows the different regions to easily access each other's systems.
Online banking passwords? "Find"? How the hell? Have you lived in a barrel?
There is a 8-number code that I've got in my head, then there is a 4-number password that I've also got in my head. And then a paper with single-use passwords which work so that when I have given the two correct passwords, it tells me which code to use. And no way am I giving full access to my bank account for my children!
Some banks also have a system where you log in with your fingerprint and then a four-number code using an app on your phone.
I think the money on the parents' accounts is a much better motivation for the children than an ability to watch porn. And yet, I have not heard of anybody's children actually having found out their parent's bank passwords.
And also: Maybe there really is a child that installs a keylogger on their parents' computer and steals the password paper from the parents' wallet and also happens to really want to go out of their way to watch porn... Well, then there is. Such a child is already in so many ways in trouble that I don't think seeing porn will traumatize them at all. Such children are few and it makes no sense trying to build a 100-percent foolproof system. In any case, using online banking passwords is a lot more reliable way than the weird hocus-pocus being done now.
My point is that you can't build a completely teenager-proof system. Even if most parents uphold the most unimpeachable password discipline, someone's going to put a password on a post-it note near their computer, and have their child see the piece of paper, or use their dog's name despite their child having also met the family dog.
The original comment I was replying to was framing the issue as teenagers being allowed to watch porn versus no teenager ever seeing porn and maybe some freedom is sacrificed to do that, which doesn't match the real-world debate. If freedoms are sacrificed just to make it a hassle for teenagers to see porn, that's much less compelling whether or not you see it as a worthwhile goal.
As for what a teenager with access to their parents' bank password would do, if they're not a moron, they'll realise that spending their parents' money will leave lots of evidence (e.g. that they have extra stuff, their parents have less money than expected in their account, and there's an unexpected purchase from The Lego Group on the bank statement), and so they're guaranteed to end up in trouble for it. It's not any different to a child taking banknotes from their parent's wallet. On the other hand, using it to prove adulthood, if it was truly untraceable like adults would want, wouldn't leave a paper trail.
You can't build a completely teenager-proof system. But you can build a system that is almost completely teenage-proof. And that's definitely good enough!
All such systems exist only to support parents in their parenting. It gets easier keeping your children safe and developing well if the amount of ways the teenagers can be idiots is narrowed down.
As I said, I fundamentally disagree. Even if you can make a nearly-teenager-proof website (and so far, your example has been something that most of the people I was at school with could have beaten aged thirteen), teenagers can just go to a different website, so the system is only ever as teenager-resistant as it is difficult to find a website that doesn't care. Most vaguely competent teenagers know how to find pirate sites with illegally-hosted TV, movies and music (even if they're not techy, one of their friends just has to tell them a URL and they can visit it). Governments have had minimal success stopping online piracy even when aided by multi-billion-dollar copyright-holding companies, so there's no realistic reason to think they'll have any more success stopping porn sites with non-compliant age checks.
While I disagree with the teenagers' ability to find my banking passwords regardless of where I hide them, for example because I can make a copy of them that has been altered with a password I can calculate in my head and that takes the location of the password on the table into account in the calculation, the rest is true.
I remember having seen things I really wouldn't want to see even as adult when I was browsing Internet for stuff that wasn't supposed to be available. Shady websites can be shady in so many ways! It is true that making an age verification system for a basic porn site will probably direct the youth to other sites with content you wouldn't see on PornTube. I hope my children won't ever watch porn, but if they ever do, I hope it's from a source that doesn't allow the worst things to be shown. For example PornHub does remove the worst stuff and is quite commonly used. If that one cannot be accessed, then probably something else will. And it's likely to be worse. Though, PornHub has a lot of really bad abusive things as well. Checked it out now and one of the first videos it showed was something that looked like the woman is really unhappy, even distressed, about the situation she's being filmed in :(