this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2025
506 points (98.5% liked)
Technology
75041 readers
2042 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related news or articles.
- Be excellent to each other!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, this includes using AI responses and summaries. To ask if your bot can be added please contact a mod.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
- Accounts 7 days and younger will have their posts automatically removed.
Approved Bots
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Install??
Mac guy, and I remember trying Linux inside Windows and installing it while using it. For someone with 30 years of experience with Windows, Linux was a fucking joke — as in the mockery it made of everything I knew about Windows. It felt like magic. It’s not very deep though — people need to realize Linux is still very much a project. macOS is a complete product, but it’s not free and it’s tied to proprietary hardware. Still, these days I see the choice between macOS and Linux. Windows doesn’t even make the ballot for me.
"EVs don't work in cold climates, I know because I tried an electric mower 20 years ago that didn't work in the cold so I've ignored all development in the last 20 years"
Same fucking logic buddy.
Tell me you haven't used a Linux desktop recently without telling me.
"I remember". Using that phrase tells me it wasn't recently enough. And "using it inside windows" tells me you tried to fit a round peg into a square hole or that you don't know what you are talking about.
You may be a MAC fan and that's OK if that works for you, but I haven't needed to use anything else but Linux since 2004 (initially there were always pickups, though) and I've been runing it without issues since probably 2010.
Tell me you don't know that much about computers without telling me. MAC stands for Media Access Control, it's a networking term, every device has a MAC address.
Mac is a computer made by Apple. It doesn't stand for anything. It's short for Macintosh. But there hasn't been an "Apple Macintosh" in a long time. They've just been Macs. Oh, and macOS is certified UNIX, whatever that means, so stuff your elitism. We're both using *nix. Mine just works without issues.
But in the interests of transparency, no, I haven't actually tried to use Linux, like gave it a shot as a daily driver, in like 15-20 years. I've dabbled off and on but I think we can agree dicking around in a VM doesn't count. More recently than that, I put Ubuntu on my mother-in-law's computer and supported it for about a year, but then she went back to Windows — that was like a decade ago. I have used Linux off and on since the 90s. But what really stopped me — I got married. Settled down. Now, my wife doesn't give a shit what the thing runs as long as Firefox works, but any weirdness with the OS, I gotta deal with it. That kept me on Windows, until I switched. If I were still on a regular PC, given all Microsoft's bullshit, I'd probably be on Linux, most likely Ubuntu. But I had a hardware failure and I always wanted to try Mac, so I did.
Oh — just saw, "using it inside Windows". Weird that you don't know what that means since you've been using it for so long, but maybe that's the reason. So, I'm not sure if they still do, but when I did this, Ubuntu had a thing, you'd download the distro, burn it to DVD, and run it, and it would run inside Windows as an app (in a VM, I assume). You then had the option to install it, because if you didn't, nothing would survive a reboot. (Why it didn't just save a config file to disk, I don't know. Maybe that was an option.) So you install it, and while you use it, it partitions the drive and installs itself, in the background, then it copies its configuration/whatever you've downloaded to the install. Then it reboots into that, and then you're dual booting. You can also delete the Windows partition. Not sure what you mean about a round peg and a square hole. Are you saying a computer built using off-the-shelf parts should only be used for Windows, and specific hardware needs to be used for Linux? Because I've literally never heard that before and you really sound like you don't know what you're talking about by saying that. So maybe clarify?
They said that Linux is really good, and they are not wrong that for the regular person, who struggles with even the most basic IT shit, there still isn’t a full “finished” option for them, really. Power users and more savvy people grow the technology but it’s the masses who fund it and the masses need something reliable or at least a close enough friend who can help them.
Again. Have you used Fedora, Mint, Ubuntu?
Regular people get help with basic stuff in windows All the time. That's why there is a Geek Squad in best buy. That's probably the only thing missing for the non technical Linux users.
If people are paying someone to "install" their printer, why would it be different with Linux.
In fact, in Linux they'd need less tech support as many windows users calls are for slowness, virus and obsolescence.
Let's not compare usability using different standards
The hardest person to convert is a "power user". I guess you should let Red Hat and SUSE know their main product is a project. Oh and Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc...
You heard what he said he installed every distro at once as a joke, what a project. Then he paid Steve jobs $3k to step on his balls.
Can regular users even use Red Hat anymore? Fedora Core is the open source spinoff. I loved using Red Hat in the 90s and I never warmed up to Fedora Core.
Fedora Core hasn't been a thing in decades, it's just Fedora or the Fedora Project now. CentOS Stream is ABI compatible with RHEL If you create a free Red Hat Developer account you can get 16 free RHEL licenses. So, yes you very much can run RHEL.
Edit: If you or anyone else is interested https://developers.redhat.com/articles/faqs-no-cost-red-hat-enterprise-linux
Oh man, if you haven't used linux is that long it's changed drastically (for the better) since then.
A lot of tech has gotten better.
I mean, except Windows. Obviously.
Or I should say Microsoft. I booted up my Xbox yesterday to play Cyberpunk and was greeted with a full-screen ad for Borderlands 4.
Your literally commenting using a Linux server right now. A vast majority of the fediverse is hosted on Linux systems.
thank god commenting on a linux server helps me with converting all the excel macros to libreoffice...oh wait.
The vast majority of the internet is hosted on Linux.
My what is literally commenting? My phone? My computer?
And yes, I'm aware a lot of highly technical people use Linux. This whole "next year will be the year of Linux on the desktop" is silly. We can talk for days about what highly specialised platforms use Linux. It doesn't matter until Boomers are using it and not questioning. Which they have been for years since Android is mobile Linux.
Desktop anything is down, statistically, worldwide. I've been using computers for over 40 years. When I started, only nerds and geeks used them. The cool kids only used them when they had to, in computer/typing class... which was an elective when I was in school. It was never required. At some point, computers became cool. Then smartphones came out, and all of a sudden everyone's running Linux (Android) or UNIX (iOS), only they don't know it. They don't need to know it. And now computers are suddenly not cool anymore, because it's all about smartphones these days.
So it's not a push for Linux (the kernel, Linux is a kernel, not an OS, Android, Arch, Gentoo, Fedora Core, Mint, Ubuntu and others are distributions that bundle the Linux kernel with other stuff), it's a push for Linux on the desktop. But even that's not good enough, it's gotta be the command line. And Boomers are never gonna use the command line. Neither are kids. It's a moving target that will never be reached. The original idea? Give Linux a market share? We did that 15 years ago. The only reason Windows has any market share left is some schools and businesses and governments use them. *nix has been the majority for over a decade now. But it's never been "the year of Linux on the desktop." *nix has been in the palm of everyone's hands since 2007 (iPhone; Android was 2008, so close enough for Linux specifically). And 2008 was 17 years ago. Next year, there will be kids old enough to vote (in the US) who, for their entire lives, have existed in a world where *nix dominated.
You can use Linux on a desktop and literally not know what a command line is... Sounds like you were trying dual boot (complex a.f.). I absolutely get your frustration but you could also like, just buy a laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed or pay someone to do it for you.
You'd have difficulty dual booting Windows and Mac, or mucking with Powershell in Windows. I'm curious to hear what you tried in Linux and if there isn't an easier path for you.
I'm a professional software engineer so I find it comical when people say installing Linux is "easy". I slaved away for my technical skills... Using computers generally is not easy. They are bragging or lying.
How is "installing Linux" not easy? Download Ubuntu and run it. They make it easy.
You mean Arch? You mean something where you have to build it yourself and use the command line? That's not necessary to run Linux. Or to say you ran Linux. Sure, it might be more efficient, or it might be better at some things. But I have to ask where your goal post is if you say installing Linux is not easy. Ubuntu makes it easy and I imagine most of them do as well.
Or maybe I've just been using computers so long I take what I know for granted. I dunno, it's easy for me.
I was a Mac user for maybe two months when a beta came out. With ease, I created a new partition, downloaded the beta, and ran a beta (of macOS Sonoma) in the partition. I dual booted on a MacBook Air, my first Mac, which I'd only had a couple months. Okay now granted, Mac is easy mode most of the time, but they made it real easy. Though I fully understand "the average user" wouldn't know where to start, let alone have the thought that that could be done.
So, maybe I am the weird one. But it's just normal to me. Just how I am.
Server OS is in no way comparable to desktop OS...saying Linux is king of servers means nothing to users, because Linux is not even close to having any significant market share on desktop. Linux desktop still have tons of quirks and weirdness that needs to be fixed before it has a chance of mass adoption, not to mention the vast compatibility issues with especially corporate software.
I encounter quicks and weirdnesses on the windows laptop for work, which won't even fucking properly sleep or don't fucking update by itself even after trying to stop it for a while, rather than on Linux.
Can you name any such quirks and annoyances on Linux specifically? Because I can give you plenty on windows, while Linux the past 10 years or so maintains my sanity.
Sleep mode that doesn't work consistently, WiFi driver issues, printer driver issues, touchpad driver issues, several different wonky ways to install programs instead of just double-clicking an .exe and pressing "next-next-OK", random shutdown of programs for no reason or error codes...the list goes on. And on topnof that, all the stuff that people are used to using that just doesn't run on Linux at all.
I love Linux, but I admit these are valid. I've had some of these same issues.
I haven't had any issues with sleep on my devices, but I have in the recent past on previous hardware.
My WiFi doesn't work at all on my desktop. Though it's worked on a live image from another distro so seems likely to be an issue with the distro's distributed kernel, not a Linux one. I run a rolling release distro so won't be that the kernel is too old. But don't care so haven't troubleshot it much. My printer requires the use of vendor provided drivers, which are only available for some distros. It works, but not a solution I'm happy with. Never had touchpad issues.
I think package repos > collecting and installing your software piecemeal from all over the place. But having to deal with repos, flatpaks, appimages, etc. can be daunting.
Sounds like an OOM process kill maybe? That'll show in your kernel logs if so. But no immediate visual feedback.
If there's proprietary software that doesn't run on Linux that someone wants/needs to run and there aren't any viable alternatives then yeah, probably a non-starter. There's wine of course but it can be a crapshoot. No shade intended towards the project. It's amazing what it can do, even if it can't do everything.
Which reminds me. I can't even move the taskbar to the left of the screen anymore since windows 11 was forced upon me. Pffft.
I love my Mac for development work, but the Mac window manager is more buggy than i3 window manager in Linux.
And much less secure.
But yeah we use all three big OSes work. The OS should be the least important part of the machine honestly. Programs are what are important.
It’s significantly more secure than windows, but yes there is much more malware available for MacOS these days.
I literally have tux tattoo’d on my chest and make my living writing software for Linux … but I’d choose my Mac to develop on every day of the week.
It’s weird that I’m here now, because I do love Linux and wish I could tile like i3 (or even easily replace the Window Managwr at all) but … it’s a easier daily driver for working
I should also add the caveat that if I was buying my own work machine I’d not buy a Mac, but if work is gonna provide the MBP I want my M chip lmao
Because Windows is so polished, flawless and frictionless, right? I don't believe it will EVER be the "year of the Linux desktop" because that's not even a thing, so I agree with you there. However, the one thing none of you Windows-defenders can't argue with is the fact that an extremely large percentage of people that try Linux, after a while, end up forgetting all about windows and never come back.
You can argue all you want in terms of marketshare, but that's all Windows has working for it. It's not because it's stable, or because it's 'user friendly' and certainly not because it's beautiful.
And it's been years since using CLI is entirely optional, unless you break something catastrophically (short of a hardware failure, guess what, you'd need CLI to make this happen). You can do everything over GUI. In Windows, anything that is even remotely damaged turns into a fucking reinstall that usually takes hours, vs just reinstalling ANY Linux distro, while keeping your home partition intact, only because you're bored and want to try something else, which takes around 15 minutes.
See how all your rant makes no sense at all? Once you've driven a Bentley, you'd be hard pressed to return to a Honda Civic.
I use Mint on my daily driver laptop, and I'm not defending windows, but the fact that things are way less intuitive in Linux makes it less user friendly and not a good solution for non-techies. I mean, I have to use one of 3 different ways of installing something depending in what the dev kind of feels for, that's insanely terrible UX.
The installation options for software (not OS), in the vast majority of cases (apps) we are given the option of FlatPak, appimage or packages (and fucking Snaps), and choosing a GUI 'app store' or CLI. Yes there are cases in which you only have 1 option, but those are not the rule, but the exception. How exactly is this worse than in Windows having to download a .exe file and go through a whole lot of 'accept' dialogs, or Windows store? Isn't this more accessible and friendlier to any taste? One of the reasons my wife is so sold on Fedora Workstation on her PC (while having to use Windows on her laptop because of some backwards bullshit system she needs to maintain our company taxes) is because, believe it or not, stuff just works, anything she wants to do has an option in the 'Software' app for her to just install, and move on (mostly FlatPaks). Windows is constantly giving her issues, pushing crap she's not interested in, suddenly breaking for no apparent reason, wifi randomly disconnecting, or the amazingly insightful 'an error has occurred' or something like that which only serves to state the obvious with absolutely no way to figure out what the fuck went wrong and try to fix it to avoid it happening again.
You actually think Windows provides a better user experience than the shittiest Linux distro with the most horrible DE or WM? You're out of your mind man.
No Linux distro is perfect, but Windows is objectively the biggest pain in the ass to install, maintain, use and even shut down.
I'll challenge you, or anyone, to purposely break your windows system, to the point that reinstalling is the only option to get that computer back up and running, and do the same with any Linux distro (short of fucking Arch). See what provides you with more frustration and longer down time. This is the one thing in which Windows wins every time, fucking down time and frustration. No other OS comes even close.
What
the
fuck, over?
Ah, I knew someone would misread that. What I meant as "a fucking joke" was that it made a mockery of everything I thought I knew about Windows.
Friend, that which makes a mockery is not the joke, because it creates the joke, which itself likely is not.
That which is made a mockery is the joke because it was made such by that which makes the mockery.
A thing or person can make of it/themself, but this doesn’t apply to your case.
In your case, Windows was made a mockery by Linux, thus Windows is a joke.
Also if you knew this was going to be misread, you could’ve edited your comment at any time to accurately reflect your meaning.
Nobody misread that. You miswrote it.
Of course, it made a mockery of everything you know of Windows because it's not like Windows. Neither is it meant to be used like one nor is it heading in that direction (not to mention that Windows is one monotonous thing, like if you know your hands across one install of Windows, you know it all. The same is not true about Linux. A Void Linux user might still not be as adept at a Gentoo install).
You are contradicting yourself. First you call it magic and then you call it not very deep. If it's the latter, why do so many production servers run on Linux?
Some Linux distros like Debian have a fantastic reputation for stability. Sure, bugs still exist. I personally struggle with a distro agnostic bug that breaks workflows often on my current setup. But things have come a long way. And it's better than Windows non customizable privacy invading approach any day.
The twin advantages Windows has is wrt games (though that is slowly being covered) and more importantly, specialized software. I know folks IRL who have to use Windows just because their work requires it.
Is bootloader locked on mac or apple products?
Yes. However, it’s not super difficult to get a signed image to meet the requirements. To my knowledge they aren’t actively trying to prevent the installation of other operating systems. The bigger issue is the software supporting their unique hardware.
I understand there’s quite a few missing drivers on the latest Macs. It’s possible to run Linux but I don’t think it’s especially user friendly at the moment. Apple does a lot of custom stuff and not all of their hardware has open source drivers available.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asahi_Linux
https://asahilinux.org/
Don’t they have a bunch of kernel changes that they can’t merge upstream?
Ah, it appears that it’s indeed a work in progress. If I was going to try it, this is definitely the distribution I would use. But I don’t think a whole lot of people are able to run Ubuntu for example. It’s going to be a more limited selection because of the hardware.
On iPhone, absolutely. On Mac, I'm not sure. I know I can use the disk manager to make a new partition, install whatever OS on it I want — though, my Macs are both ARM64, so I'm quite limited there — and boot to it. I'm not sure if it's fair to say "the bootloader is unlocked" though. Since it's Apple's bootloader. I don't know if I can change it. Like on Android, when I used to mess with custom firmware ~10 years ago, we'd replace the garbage Android bootloader with TWRP (Team Win Recovery Project) and that would give us the option to make backups and to flash custom forks of Android (e.g. CyanogenMod, AOKP, etc.). And some of those bootloaders were locked down pretty tight (like HTC's) where some were wide open (like Samsung, before Knox was a thing).
RHEL, SUSE (SLES), Ubuntu, Alma, Rocky, CENTOS Stream, I could go on for hours with enterprise distros that blow Windows out of the water without flinching. And if we go to specific use-case distros, that's a list for anyone to go over for days, while Windows is aiming to be THE OS, and failing miserably at this. This has been the case for at least a decade now.
Mac? I can see how some people could be geared towards it, not because it's any better than the worst Linux distro, but because it's made for lazy people that have no idea how anything works.
"In my 30 years of experience", with what? With windows trying to run some other OS inside it like an app? Don't 30 years of experience allow you to understand the amount of resources overhead that requires and how it's just a VM or LXC, not bare metal that you're running? And even then, it still worked.
All the stuff in your comment screams 'I want to scream that I know about something I know nothing about". Go back to your mom's basement to doomscroll 4chan.
RHEL, SUSE (SLES), Ubuntu, Alma, Rocky, CENTOS Stream, I could go on for hours with enterprise distros that blow Windows out of the water without flinching. And if we go to specific use-case distros, that's a list for anyone to go over for days, while Windows is aiming to be THE OS, and failing miserably at this. This has been the case for at least a decade now.
Mac? I can see how some people could be geared towards it, not because it's any better than the worst Linux distro, but because it's made for lazy people that have no idea how anything works.
"In my 30 years of experience", with what? With windows trying to run some other OS inside it like an app? Don't 30 years of experience allow you to understand the amount of resources overhead that requires and how it's just a VM or LXC, not bare metal that you're running? And even then, it still worked.
All the stuff in your comment screams 'I want to scream that I know about something I know nothing about". Go back to your mom's basement to doomscroll 4chan.