this post was submitted on 29 Aug 2025
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Which ones?
Thanks for the graph! Happy to see that. I'm very willing to investigate my perception of China. What China-critical sources do you consider credible? What arguments would convince you that China is a bad place?
My personal experiences are from the scientific community, where those who come from China are extremely critical of it, in a great part due to extreme surveillance, low individual freedom and low respect for human rights. But that's just anecdotal.
My immediate (better sourced) concerns would be the Uyghurs, who don't seem to enjoy being Chinese , the five million people working under modern slavery, the people of occupied Tibet, and generally anyone who doesn't speak, dress or behave the way the state thinks they should.
I consider those credible sources, but I'd be happy to reconsider that if you have any good reasons to doubt them.
My argument is that while possibly lots of people in China think it's a good place and are happy with the overall direction, lots of other people in China are being treated with a terrifying brutality that is impossible to justify if you believe in the values of universal human welfare and dignity.
These approval rates are generally positive across the board. There's no slavery of Uyghurs in China, no mass sterilizations or executions. The issue with your sources is that, generally, they aren't credible. Xinjiang in particular does have high approval rates, and while there was a response from the state to western-backed extremists, this has died down and the program has been seen as a success. See Qiao Collective's Xinjiang Resource Guide.
As for Tibet, read Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth. Here's 2 excerpts:
Selection two, shorter: (CW sexual violence and mutilation)
Essentially, you only seem to trust organizations that have direct ties to western state department propagandists. Your sources on Xinjiang all lead back to Adrian Zenz, orgs like Human Rights Watch are just western government mouthpieces, etc. The UN report on Xinjiang is the least bad source on it from the west, though China's response should also be read.
My argument is that you essentially have immersed yourself in a Cold War style understanding of China that doesn't reflect reality. China isn't perfect, it has a long way to go, but it's come a lot farther than any other country and is still rapidly improving with no signs of stopping.
Thanks again. I'd like to restate my question: which China-critical sources do you consider credible? Any western ones? Is there any way I could present this argument to make you change your mind?
I'm having a hard time accepting that all western sources are propaganda. I've never had reason to doubt the sources I cited before, such as Amnesty International, in other cases they've been accurate. Are they only misleading on China?
The free media of my country, Denmark, reports the same facts based on their investigations, across the political spectrum and despite angering our government, which has close economic ties to China. How does that fit with these organizations and this media being government mouthpieces?
The west, Denmark included, has interest in undermining the current government of China because it prevents the free movement of capital. As such, even though the west does a ton of business with China, it seeks to undermine its government and replace it with a liberal, capitalist-friendly gov. The links I gave you were all western, actually, I just heavily distrust mass media's reporting on geopolitical adversaries.