this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2025
528 points (99.8% liked)

Technology

74114 readers
3203 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related news or articles.
  3. Be excellent to each other!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, this includes using AI responses and summaries. To ask if your bot can be added please contact a mod.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
  10. Accounts 7 days and younger will have their posts automatically removed.

Approved Bots


founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] x00z@lemmy.world 127 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

They're such bullies. It also shows how awful democracy can be. They just change the legalese around until it goes trough. It has already been voted against, yet they want the control and do whatever they can to get it.

Can't believe that nobody told them their dick pics will get flagged as false positives.

[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 49 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (2 children)

It somewhat works here (Switzerland) since the Volksentscheid is holy and pulling that stunt gets a lot of people really upset about not honoring that choice.

But yeah democracies need rules against repeated attempts, since this is an exploit violating the idea of a democracy. In Germany, this is already a problem, called Salamitaktik (Salami slicing tactic).

[–] PacketPilot@lemmy.world 2 points 22 minutes ago

What about the new internet surveillance law being pushed that Proton is moving it's infrastructure out of Switzerland to avoid? Is there any pushback to that?

[–] Humanius@lemmy.world 14 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (7 children)

The EU is a democracy.

While it's not perfect (no system is), each of the bodies that make up the EU legislature are democratic:

  • The European Parliament is directly elected in European elections every five years
  • The European Commission is made up of commissioners from each country, which are in turn appointed by their democratically elected governments
  • The European Council consists of the heads of state or governance, which are also democratically elected in the respective countries.
  • The Council of the European Union is made up of government ministers, which are appointed by the democratically elected governments.

Not every body is directly voted on, but each body comes forth from a democratic election

Edit: The message I responded to originally made the claim that the "EU is no democracy."

[–] TipsyMcGee@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 59 minutes ago

You are right that there are no perfect democracies, but the EU really isn't even close. Rather the EU should foremost be considered a technocracy with some formal democratic underwriting.

In most cases, that's totally fine and not a problem in terms of democracy. Most policies, especially in the matters the EU was originally formed to make decisions on, there isn't a huge interest for citizens to get involved – national interests (governments) and organized interest/lobby groups usually offer enough avenues for input on things like technical agricultural export standards. However, as the Union expands into things like organizing mass surveillance under flimsy pretexts, and whatnot, private citizens aren't adequately represented – a stronger popular mandate is required for the decisionmaking to truly be considered democratic.

Formally, I, as a citizen of an EU member state, can influence the decisions of the EU in two ways: By voting for my country's parliament every fourth year and by voting in the general elections for European Parliament every fifth. So let's examine how far that goes.

Where I live, the main opposition party and the largest government party generally agree on most controversial issues pertaining to privacy or individual rights, e.g. Chat Control. Together these parties control a majority of the seats of parliament. Those parties gain the bulk of their support on domestic issues, such as tax policy, crime prevention, etcetera. Thus, question like Chat Control are essentially dead on arrival in terms of parliamentary politics. Now, my country is also not a perfect democracy, but comparatively it would (justly) rank quite high and parties can be responsive to popular opinion and outcries. So let's say a citizen group managed to put Chat Control on the agenda, to the point where parties feel vulnerable on the issue. What then? Then that amounts to one vote out of 27 in the European Council, which is only meaningful when that is enough for a veto.

But the ubiquitous vetoes are what truly undermines the EU's standing as a democracy, in my opinion. Notably, vetoes are pretty much the best you can get from your EP vote as well, in terms of the parliament's decision making powers. In reality, the only thing citizens of the EU can rally behind is stopping proposals by, chiefly, the supreme technocratic body, the Commission. There is no cross-border party mechanism with pan-European campaigning on the council level. Voters do not influence majorities. And on the EP level the party mechanism, built on "political groups", is opaque and not truly cross-border. Cohesive citizen involvement is foreign to the EU decision making process.

That is not to say that the EU is a nefarious body, or that the democratic deficiencies are intended to alienate EU citizens from the decision process. It's just that it is glaring, especially in the context of Chat Control, that public opinion isn't in the driver's seat.

[–] Clent@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

What you're describing is a republic not a democracy.

[–] Humanius@lemmy.world 0 points 1 hour ago

Republic and democracy are not mutually exclusive...

[–] raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world 10 points 11 hours ago

You are conveniently ignoring the facts that

  • elected officials are only allowed to vote on legislation put forth and that legislation is heavily influenced if not entirely written by corporate lobbyists.
  • lobbyists directly bribe their way to favourable outcomes
  • democratic processes are simply ignored when inconveniencing the powers that be - see v.d. Leyen never being on the ballot yet holding the highest office
  • corruption among high ranking EU officials is like a mafia, and they do not hold elected positions but get appointed, so they can't be voted out.
[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 17 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (1 children)

Yeah okay. But what i have issues with; it is yet another step away from the people (something medium+ sized democracies already struggle with), leading politicians to make decisions in their own interest instead of for the imaginary numbers. On top of that, member states often move the unqualified but powerful/loved politicians there, because they "can do less damage there" (i know multiple cases from Germany).

So i have trouble calling it one, even though it formally is.

[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 4 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

Yup, a democratic system should be judged on its outcomes, not its structure. If the decisions taken by a democratic organization do not strongly align with the wishes of the large majority of its members, then it isn't democratic. There are plenty such examples playing out today. Besides, in representative democracy voting at the various elections is not enough to achieve highly aligned outcomes. By the time you get to the ballot box a whole lot of the fundamental decisions have been made without your input. E.g. who the representatives candidates are and what their candidate platforms are. This is how you get to "all the choices suck" and "vote for the least bad option" scenarios. Meanwhile the prebaked decions that lead to these scenarios are going to benefit the interested groups that made them. The effect of voting at the ballot box in such scenarios then becomes providing consent to satisfy those interests.

E: And of course any leftist can explain why and how those interests arise and how they capture the representative democratic system. And how that produces loss of faith in the system.

[–] JustJack23@slrpnk.net 9 points 13 hours ago

They are theoretically, but coming from Eastern Europe all those levels of abstractions lead to "opportunities" for "managing democracy" and more importantly for alienation of the people because most people do not know what they are voting for or what each of their chosen representativea do when in office.

I am not saying it is a broken system, but I think it can be better and in particular direct participation can be greatly improved.

[–] DawnOfTime@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 11 hours ago

If the economy is not democratic, it is not a democracy

[–] Pirate@feddit.org 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

All I see is a bureaucratic nightmare. No democracy to be seen, starting from the fact all politicians in the EU are bourgeoisie.

Their servants are all unpaid interns who have a near zero chance of ever staying in Brussels. Those that don't come from well-off families that can support them will never enter a single EU institution.

[–] deafboy@lemmy.world -2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

It is a buerocratic nightmare, but filthy bolsheviks has zero rights to criticize it.

[–] JustJack23@slrpnk.net 52 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah it is the 3th time in the past year I think some variation of this shit is proposed.... Fuck them.

[–] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 18 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

This isn't democracy. It is capitalist dictatorships terrorising the working class.

Secret police monitoring your every action is incompatible with democracy. It is authoritarian tyranny.