this post was submitted on 06 May 2026
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[–] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 15 points 8 hours ago (4 children)

Damn, the average efficiency of an internal combustion engine is <30%, with the best hovering around 40%. That's an insane waste energy, and does explain why they get so hot.

This is why the anti-EV propaganda is so bunk. Even if you plug an EV into a grid that is 100% dirty coal powered, you're still more efficient than hauling around a gas engine that has such a low efficiency. Turns out, power plants don't like wasting that much energy and do everything they can to squeeze as much power as they can out of it.

Then you add on that even the worst power districts in the US sit around 40% renewables and... yeah.

[–] irotsoma@piefed.blahaj.zone 0 points 11 minutes ago (1 children)

Not quite, but it definitely could if the technology could get some funding to advance it. The batteries, chargers, and electric motors still waste a ton of energy that needs to be considered for overall efficiency. But it usually gets overlooked because it's harder to quantify without access to a lot of proprietary data.

If we're talking only moving the car and in optimal weather (EVs have a significant disadvantage in the cold), the combustion engine is still significantly more efficient at creating the kinetic energy from raw oil than an EV from any type of power plant's fuel. You have to consider all the stuff that happens before the gasoline or electricity gets to the car as well as idle waste. Gasoline in a proper tank evaporates much more slowly than idle batteries lose energy.

If we're looking at air conditioning and other electrical stuff, the engine and alternator system is probably not quite as efficient at charging the battery as the power grid and EV chargers are. It's at least closer.

But more efficient batteries and chargers (especially the fast chargers) would probably close the gap. But not likely to happen until the oil industry collapses so the tech gets some real funding. One day it will get there. Combustion tech has no real way to improve efficiency without significantly sacrificing safety. But EVs have lots of room to improve.

[–] sexy_peach@feddit.org 1 points 3 minutes ago

Your estimations are very incorrect. Just refining a gallon of gas uses 5kwh of electricity, an electric car will go 25km with that...

https://www.theinvadingsea.com/2025/05/07/gasoline-production-energy-fossil-fuels-refineries-internal-combustion-engine-electric-vehicles/

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 8 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I have 3 counter-arguments for this "dirty coal" nonsense:

  1. Plugging into a 100% coal-powered connection still produces far fewer greenhouse gases per mile than ICE (and especially diesel).
  2. The emissions are created at the power plant, and not pumped into the air directly outside your home where your children might be playing.
  3. Electricity can come from pretty much infinite sources from coal to gas, solar, wind, nuclear, etc. etc. but oil only ever comes from 1 place.
[–] banause@feddit.org 3 points 3 hours ago

I think I found a misunderstanding.

[–] Ooops@feddit.org 11 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

While that is true in general, combined coal power plants also only sit at about 50% on average, 65% with the most modern ones.

So burning stuff in a power plant, then adding some more loss in transfer, is not actually much better.

Which of course is not an argument against EVs but against coal and gas power plants. In the end they are still just glorified rather primitive steam machines.

Oh no doubt they're horrible. Just that when looking through the lens of propaganda where a huge argument t against EVs is that it's still hooked up to a per plant, that the pollution is not 1:1, that even the worst case power plant beats out an ICE vehicle.

But that requires critical thinking and nuance and Facebook commenters got no time for that.

[–] ByteSorcerer@beehaw.org 2 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

It's the renewables on the grid that have to make a difference. If you're powering an electric car purely out of electricity generated with fossil fuels you're effectively building a series hybrid with extra steps, with the combustion engine being outside of the vehicle. Or I guess you could also compare it to a diesel-electric locomotive with the generator outside the vehicle, which he also explained in the video would not be good for efficiency. And yes at the scale of power plants you can do some things more efficient, but it's not actually that much as the efficiency is mostly limited by similar thermodynamic processes than that happen inside an engine. A typical coal power plant also has an efficiency of 30-40% (so effectively a mediocre coal plant is similar in efficiency to a very efficient engine, and yes, some new ones can reach higher efficiencies, but the vast majority still use an old design, at least around here). But when you get the energy from a power plant you still have distribution losses on the grid, conversion losses when charging the battery and again when discharging the battery, and the efficiency losses in the electric motor, while you do not have grid losses and charging/discharging losses and losses in an electric motor with a combination engine is directly driving the wheels.

That's why it's important to keep investing in renewables. You indeed don't need a whole lot of renewables to offset the efficiency losses of the battery and distribution, but you do need at least some of it. And you also should not just look at the grid as a whole, but at how the additional load of charging the vehicle gets handled. If all renewables on the grid are operating at maximum capacity all the time, and there is a coal plant that is used to burn extra coal when extra capacity is needed, then any additional load can be considered to be running on pure coal power even if the grid contains many renewable sources. But if you live in a neighbourhood where there is a constant overproduction of solar power while the grid and can charge your car at times of overproduction, then you effectively charge your car with fully green energy even if the grid contains a lot of fossil fuel plants.

You can consider electric cars to be the infrastructure that enables the transport sector to become more green, but we do also need to actively increase energy generations via green sources to actually make use of that "infrastructure". Though I guess there is also some good news: Powering an electric car from exclusively fossil fuel energy sources puts the efficiency of the full chain somewhere between regular cars and hybrids. So it should at least never be worse than driving a regular car. Worst case it's just equivalent. But it does need investments in green energy sources as the demand on electricity increases to become significantly better.

[–] MachineFab812@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 6 hours ago

Without a Plug-In? Hard agree, nor should they.

[–] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 3 points 7 hours ago (2 children)

I wanted to get an EV when I bought my last car, but I was planning to retire and do a a bunch of road trips. Yes, you can do cross country in an EV, but it's harder in a lot of places and my friends have told me horror stories of getting to to charging stations and finding them broken, getting stranded.

My hybrid get 50 mpg highway, 43 city. That's not as efficient as an EV, but it's not terrible for a midsize sedan.

[–] Vodulas@beehaw.org 4 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Fortunately that is becoming less common. If you don't know about it (or your friends don't), check out https://www.plugshare.com/

You can filter by charger type and see if a station is operational. Super helpful tool

[–] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 hour ago

Good to hear

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 5 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

my friends have told me horror stories of getting to to charging stations and finding them broken, getting stranded.

Its an unfortunate reality. My first BEV was a Chevy Bolt. The unreliability of charging infrastructure caused me a lot of pain when traveling. Got a Tesla in 2021 and that pain evaporated. Charging stations are abundant and work perfectly 99% of the time. The other 1% you just move to a different stall.

Fortunately they are slowly opening this charging network to other OEMs and I think the reliability in general has improved considerably. But it does still require some research when traveling.

If you have a multi-vehicle family it makes a lot of sense to have 1 BEV and 1 PHEV.

[–] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Even my friend with a tesla had issues. Not so much with a lack of stations, but making his way to one and finding someone had damaged it so it wasn't usable. Plus even though the charge times are down, having to wait 20 minutes for the car to charge when you have kids or whatever is obnoxious.

The infrastructure will get better. I bought in 2023, and a hybrid made more sense for me then.

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 2 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Even my friend with a tesla had issues.

Not going to discount their experience but I feel like mine should be equally valid. I take 3-4 road trips/year with nary an issue other than 1 or 2 stalls being down or a short wait during the holiday season at a packed charging station, over the last 4+ years.

having to wait 20 minutes for the car to charge when you have kids or whatever is obnoxious.

After 4+ hours of driving, I am more than ready for a short break. I will typically stay stopped for longer than it even takes to charge while I get something to eat.

[–] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Not discounting you at all, just saying that was the situation in 2023 with people I knew. Doesn't make your experience more or less valid.

[–] Kratzkopf@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 23 minutes ago

From instance names alone I also gather that both of you live on differnt continents. The situation may be very different in Canada and much more densely populated Germany.

[–] sanzky@beehaw.org 3 points 8 hours ago

I also used to think hybrids were probably too complex, but 5years ago after checking in how ecvt works I got a corolla station wagon (US doesn’t get it. your loss) hybrid an I really like it. it gives me 4.7l/100km and moves super smooth.