this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2025
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[–] janAkali@lemmy.sdf.org 58 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

If something is a propaganda it does not automatically mean it's false.

propaganda
n 1: information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 34 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Yep, correct. Propaganda can be for a good cause, like for climate activism.

[–] Flyberius@hexbear.net 23 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 month ago
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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

Sure. But the meme still holds.

[–] SnokenKeekaGuard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 33 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yes yes but the truth is always in the middle. (I am so smart)

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Far-Right: Donald Trump and Xi Jinping

Far-Left: DSA

The Middle: ducking Amy Klobacher throwing a stapler

[–] Maeve@kbin.earth 10 points 1 month ago

Took me a moment to realize this is rhetorical device to illustrate the point.

[–] HiddenLayer555@lemmy.ml 24 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Anyone says anything against their worldview

Libs: HURR DURR .ML HURR DURR TANKIE

[–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Does it happen a lot around here though? Most of the time I think we're mostly just critical of Capitalists and Authoritarians. Usually Socialism, real Communism, and Anarchism are not really critisized except by some .world users.

Edit: Except during a round of good ol' Leftist Infighting.

[–] bubblybubbles@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 month ago (18 children)

Authoritarianism is just yet another word made up by the west to label communists

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 16 points 1 month ago

I mean, it's definitely a deliberately ill-defined term that's used to conflate dictatorships of the bourgeoisie and dictatorships of proletariat. Also, mysteriously, never seems to describe friendly oligarchies like MBS's Saudi Arabia, Netanyahu's Israel, Milei's Argentina, or Bukele's El Salvador.

But its language that's very intentionally borrowed from Anarcho-Capitalism, intended to defame any kind of public governing structure. The end goal of describing every governing body we don't like as "authoritarian" is to venerate "free markets" as a utopian alternative to popular governance.

It's not just about communism. It's a term intended to denigrate any kind of popular government.

[–] mitram2@lemmy.pt 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

Wouldn't you consider Hitler's ideology authoritarian? Or Mussolini's?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 month ago (6 children)

It's less that "authoritarian" is made up, and more that it's useless. Hitler and Mussolini represented the capitalist class and oppressed workers and other social groups. Socialist states represent workers, and oppress capitalists and fascists through land reform and collectivization. Both wield authority, but some for good and some for bad.

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[–] Maturin@hexbear.net 21 points 1 month ago (1 children)

What they are saying is that "Authoritarian" is not a precise term that distinguishes anything and was just made up as a way to try to accuse AES states of being just as bad as fascist ones. It's a horseshoe theory term because any actually accurate term you would use to describe Hitler's or Mussolini's ideology would exclude the ideology of socialist states.

[–] mitram2@lemmy.pt 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Pardon my ignorance but I don't know the term "AES state"

If I see it through that perspective I get it, still sounds odd to me to label authoritarianism only as a western tool to criticise communists

[–] Maturin@hexbear.net 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

"AES" meaning "actually existing socialism." The debate over this word goes all the way back to Engels at least.

Someone else may help me find a link, because I remember reading a different article about this specifically, but these three definitely touch on it:

https://redsails.org/tankies/

https://redsails.org/brainwashing/

https://redsails.org/losurdo-on-totalitarianism/ (this one is about "totalitarianism" and the "horseshoe" theory I referenced above)

[–] mitram2@lemmy.pt 2 points 1 month ago

Thank you for the references

[–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (5 children)

I would consider authoritarian a useless word for describing them. Sure, you could call them that and it would fit, but it says very little about them and fails to distinguish them from other states.

All states are authoritarian. Holding and exerting authority is the point of a state. The state exists as a tool for a class to express its authority over the other.

This same issue applies to the term dictatorship as well. When we hear the term authoritarian we must ask authority for whom. When we hear the word dictatorship we must ask what group is dictating and to what end.

Until the state is abolished every society is authoritarian and a dictatorship. So what's the point of the descriptor?

Edit: if I have been too vague I'm happy to elaborate further

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[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

It's not about if an ideology uses authority to entrench itself. Every state and organization with any power in the world does that. It's about who wields that authority against who, and for what purpose. We generally consider Hitler and Mussolini to be exceptionally "authoritarian", but in reality the only thing exceptional about them was that they directed that authority inward instead of just outward, the latter of which we in the west are all more accustomed to. They took the full-spectrum colonial violence typically reserved for non-white people outside their borders, and directed it also towards white people within their borders. This (and only this) is what we have been taught to view as an unacceptable aberration.

TLDR Authority itself is not "good" or "evil". Authority is just a weapon like any other, and what makes it heroic or repugnant is who wields it against who.

[–] mitram2@lemmy.pt 1 points 1 month ago

I agree with you and don't feel it contradicts the opinion that "authoritarian" is more than a mere tool against communists

Either way, and as I've said in another comment, this feels mostly like discussing semantics, but I'm enjoying the civilised conversation

[–] Packet@hexbear.net 12 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Authoritarian is to hold power, in the basic sense. It is to have a state, and to enact that state power. Anarchist comrades will call any state or ideology authoritarian if it does not go against the state. I am not as well read on this as other, but this is the gist.

[–] mitram2@lemmy.pt 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Right that's why I don't understand @bubblybubbles's point.

All terms are made up, but it makes sense to have a definition for authoritarianism. It feels like we are just discussing semantics

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Hitler's government qualifies as "authoritarian" in the same way that FDR's government does. It can describe Starmer's UK. Or Sheinbaum's Mexico. It can be applied as easily to Lai Ching-te's Taiwan as Xi's China. It's a nothingburger of a word, mostly implying you don't like the policies of the person in charge.

[–] mitram2@lemmy.pt 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I'm not sure I agree with your view.

Words are commonly misused but they still have meanings. In a society where the will of the majority is ignored in favour of the will of the few I think most people would agree it's an authoritarian society, it's usually not that black and white but every society is closer or further from authoritarian

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[–] polydactyl@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

Yeah, kinda. But, it’s far righties that jizz over capitalism the most. Trump’s such a good businessman. He will run the country great, it’s a business after all.

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