EDIT AT THE TOP:
Promotional posts require community participation or they will be removed. No more than 10% of your posts or comments may be self-promotional, or your post will be removed. F/LOSS Exception: If your post is about a project that is completely open source & can be used in full without payment, it will be exempt from this rule.
Intended to clarify on "paywall" - it has to be open source and run in full locally, no one-time or subscription-locked payment for features, to qualify. Donations don't count as that doesn't limit use, while something like Kavita (which has non-free features behind a subscription, despite the base being open source) would not have the benefit of exemption. The rule intent hasn't changed here, just the wording on the exemption limitations.
I've gotten through (I believe) all the comments in the meta thread. So I want to establish a few things, first being a better definition on spam.
Spam is not "I don't like this and its a paid product" or "I don't like this and they used AI/LLMs".
Spam would generally be considered:
- Mass-posting - Posting the exact same post across a bunch of of different communities, rapidly.
- Repetitive Content (aka karma farming) - repeatedly submitting old popular content. I'll note that this is completely irrelevant on lemmy, this was more of a reddit issue due to karma.
- Bot Activity / AI Abuse - Using scripts/bots/gen AI to automate posts and comments.
- Unsolicited DMs - Mass private messages or chats to users, completely unsolicited
I'd say anything other than that deserves a followup rule, and this definition should go in the sidebar.
Regarding the promotional posts themselves, I think something like the 10% rule makes sense - no more than 10% of the account should be self-promotional material or comments within the community.
I do think it makes sense to include an exception for 100% free/libre open source projects. Partially open projects with a closed (paid) component should be subject to the 10% rule. So what I propose as the rule would be:
Promotional posts require community participation or they will be removed. No more than 10% of your posts or comments may be self-promotional, or your post will be removed. F/LOSS Exception: If your post is about a project that is completely open source & without any paywalls, it will be exempt from this rule.
Questions, comments, clarifications, and harsh criticisms are welcomed in the comments. As a reminder from my intro post, and because of some comments in the other thread, I will mention:
There are people on both sides of the keyboards, so please be respectful of others.
Here we go again.
Both libre projects and free projects can make money via donation, patreon, or other business models. Allowing them a "vibe check" exception and not closed source or anything in between is propagating this notion that money and open source are mutually exclusive.
I appreciate the effort to establish some rules, but this is further entrenching the Lemmy self-hosting community in a mode where it's a FOSS-only space, which is both uninclusive and inaccurate.
If what you want is a FOSS-only space for self-hosting, I'd like to know that so I can find or start a similar community where ppl who do use closed source tools can post questions.
If you think this is about what I want, you haven't been reading any of my comments.
This comes out of what the community commented in the meta thread, with a bit of my own wording on top to meet the requests.
Also
That isn't promotional material and would have nothing to do with this rule, so I'm not sure what you're driving at here.
Thank for the clarification.
I have read them, all of them. Your wording "I think it makes sense to..." suggests you're making a decision. It seems based on community input, but is nonetheless still your decision. As it should be.
I don't really have an opinion on the 10% rule, I don't think anyone can help but make that an arbitrary number.
I do, however, think it's a mistake to lean heavily toward favoring FOSS here because, as I mentioned, there is nothing preventing FOSS applications from making money. Further, it is very difficult to find software that is 100% FOSS through and through.
Ultimately, the line of what is FOSS and what isn't is what will become a problem.
I'm taking an amalgam of the comments in the meta thread to rewrite for a singular rule. Of course it has my take in it. Which is why I use the word "proposed" - just like with rule 3 which was the cause of drama a few weeks ago, I put my proposed version out there, it saw some mild revision, now its in place.
I firmly disagree. The work is custodial, not dictatorial.
At which time as it becomes a problem it can be evaluated.
That said, it isn't hard to check the license being used (or licenses if it ties to multiple models), and the FSF has a great definition of f/loss. Can it meet the requirements to be f/loss and someone still make money? Yes.
Does that make a post about it an ad?
No.
I think that's the important distinction to make. Maybe get rid of the f/loss exception and explicitly call out the paid aspect. If you're here to promote software that's pay walled you get the 10% rule.
ETA: I'm fine with the new rules. Just trying to find common ground.
Just to mention, f/loss with a paywall is already not exempt per the rule.
Yeah, I understand that. I was suggesting saying the same thing without the exception wording. In the end, it doesn't stop us from talking about paid software. I use Plex, etc, etc, it's the promotion that's the problem.... That being said, maybe I've misunderstood non_burglar's complaint. Unless they are a closed source dev looking to promote.
And it shouldn't stop any sort of discussion - its the promo thats the issue, exactly.
I'm not sure I understand their complaint either. The first comment was about something not impacted at all by the rule, and the second was about floss being hard to define (its not)? Trying to get clarity here but I think I'm missing something with their concern, I don't see it.