this post was submitted on 05 Nov 2025
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dude...see the world, there is an entire industry of coffee machines in Italy since the 1920s. A hundred years ago. Starbucks was and is second rate shit for suburban moms.
Americans just turned coffee into hot desserts.
Which is a shame, because coffee should be a desert flavoring, and Starbucks is still trash.
I'm not even talking about Starbucks beyond them starting the second wave. Travel yourself. American coffee does not end with Starbucks.
If you're going to continue that strawman, then there's nothing left to discuss.
I just read about the "second wave" for the first time, and allegedly it was Starbucks' idea to "transform coffee consumption into a social event instead of just consumption of coffee".
But I can guarantee you, that that's a purely American view, as coffee consumption has been a social event long before in the rest of the world. Fika in Sweden was a thing since the 19th century. Sospreso has been a thing in Italy a century before Starbucks copied it. I don't know since when Kaffe und Kuchen is a thing in Germany, but my Gradma told me how her Grandma used to put out the white table cloth only for the Sunday Koffee. And she was long dead when Starbucks got their Idea of serving pastries with coffee. Austria got their first Kaffeehaus a century before the USA even existed. In Mecca, coffee houses were banned from 1512-1524 as they were too sociable for the imams who feard the politicization of the coffee drinkers.
And don't get me started on the "third wave", a marketing term coined by some hipsters in Los Angeles or New York to sell overpriced "specialty" coffee to other hipsters from San Francisco or Boston.
And I assure you, there's more to it than just building a coffee chain.
Instead of assuring me, maybe you could enlighten us by telling us what the fuck it is, you're talking about. Because the American
does not exist in Europe. At least not outside of Starbucks or maybe McDonalds. The Italians still drink the same espresso from Lavazza or illy as they always did, the German still buy their filter coffee from Jacobs and Tchibo, just like in the 1960s.
You both are talking past each other.
The coffee Drinks/ preparations that still define coffee today are not significantly changed by the US outside of the context of US chains, they largely are of Italian origin with some other countries preparations included and some re-popularized recently under the banner of 3rd wave coffee.
Third Wave Coffee definitely does exist and is significant change in coffee culture that was sparked probably in the US, but it largely is concerned not with drink preparation and selection but with coffee growing and roasting, moving from blended and darker roasted to single origin (traceable) and lighter roasted coffee. This change being sparked in the US, does not make the phenomenon US specific, much like Hippie culture was US lead it still was a global thing like third wave Coffee is as well.
This is not true, Europe is as much of a leader in third wave Coffee as the US and Australia, but the people drinking and selling Lavazza or Tchibo are the the same people (or their kids) as the people drinking it in the 60s, a different smaller demographic: smaller roasters, young people and people interested in coffee; have largely embraced third wave coffee globally.
I can find a third wave coffee place in every German city >200k pop, often even a roaster, and all international cities > 1M pop will have at least 10 different such shops. People that aren't plugged into the culture of third wave will not recognize these shops as significantly different to other places serving coffee first. Much like a person might not recognize differences in craft beer or specific nuances among teas if they are unfamiliar with the space. This does not mean these differences don't exist.
Third wave even though it was arguably started/inspired around Starbucks, is nowadays as opposed to the Starbucks way of doing coffee as it is opposed to the other large corporate incumbents including Tchibo Nestle and such. Fair trade although nowadays largely rejected by third wave for direct import relationships, is in some ways 2nd/3rd wave adjacent, as both argue and act for more equitable trade as well as pro social and pro environmental production.
So even though third wave can be expensive and probably originates in the US, this does not invalidate the concept for the rest of the world. To me third wave is good coffee with legacy European small roasters, German/Italian Eiskaffe, Nordic Filter, French and Austrian Coffeehouse being fine to good and everything else being sorta bad but still coffee. Every time I've taken my parents to a third wave place they've liked it at least as much but often more than my second category which is where their platonic ideal probably was, but they don't search out for them like me because they've formed their coffee habits 3+ decades ago when 3rd wave wasn't a thing. The better traditional Coffee places in Germany have moved in the direction of third wave as their premium/local legacy roasters have moved in this direction.
Of course specialty and 3rd wave are marketing terms, but there is real and good Praxis behind them which imo. makes for better tasting coffee and maybe a better coffee industry.
The price hit is significant with beans costing 2+ times as much as legacy roasters, but for prepared coffee there is essentially no difference in price. The differences here are more explained by (foot traffic customers)/(commercial rent) where it is served than anything else, you can get coffee that is cheaper but just barely. Almost nowhere will serve anything under 2€, and specialty espresso/batch filter are typically under 3€ (Germany).
Thank you, finally someone is trying to bring some sense into what Frezik meant by "American coffe culture". To me that's still a pretty niche thing and not "everywhere" as they claimed, but at least I can acknowledge that it exists.
Yet I'm still not sure how much of that development is based in the US. We have had small rosters in my hometown all the time and not only Tchibo, but I guess the numbers might have gone up again lately and maybe the US could even have played a part in that trend.
Just as with Craft Beer, it's not something the USA invented. We've had crafted beer in Germany all the time, and every little town had it's own local brewery. We just didn't call it "Craft Beer" it was simply "beer". However, the general trend was going towards industrialized big brand beers and away from the old fashioned Dorfbrauerei in the late 20th century, with a lot of smaller breweries closing down. The US Craft Beer szene might have helped turning that trend around and giving small breweries a new fancy name for their old product to bring it back into the supermarkets.
My local butcher is closing after more than a century, my local bakery was replaced by a local chain a few years ago. Maybe the US can start a Craft Butchering and a Craft Bread trend next, so I don't have to drive 2km to the next local bakery.
What Starbucks did was exist. Yes, it is crap coffee. You know who agrees? Baristas who used to work at Starbucks. They left and formed their own little shops. And they started tinkering with espresso machines. As a result of that, espresso has improved dramatically over the last 20 years. It's more consistent and avoids extracting undesirable flavors.
That's still an America only thing. Baristas in Italy had their own little shops long before Starbucks existed, they knew how to make good coffee all along, they didn't need American Corporations to tell them how to barista.