this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2025
245 points (98.8% liked)
Canada
10729 readers
281 users here now
What's going on Canada?
Related Communities
🍁 Meta
🗺️ Provinces / Territories
- Alberta
- British Columbia
- Manitoba
- New Brunswick
- Newfoundland and Labrador
- Northwest Territories
- Nova Scotia
- Nunavut
- Ontario
- Prince Edward Island
- Quebec
- Saskatchewan
- Yukon
🏙️ Cities / Local Communities
- Anmore (BC)
- Burnaby (BC)
- Calgary (AB)
- Comox Valley (BC)
- Edmonton (AB)
- East Gwillimbury (ON)
- Greater Sudbury (ON)
- Guelph (ON)
- Halifax (NS)
- Hamilton (ON)
- Kingston (ON)
- Kootenays (BC)
- London (ON)
- Mississauga (ON)
- Montreal (QC)
- Nanaimo (BC)
- Niagara Falls (ON)
- Niagara-on-the-Lake (ON)
- Oceanside (BC)
- Ottawa (ON)
- Port Alberni (BC)
- Regina (SK)
- Saskatoon (SK)
- Squamish (BC)
- Thunder Bay (ON)
- Toronto (ON)
- Vancouver (BC)
- Vancouver Island (BC)
- Victoria (BC)
- Waterloo (ON)
- Whistler (BC)
- Windsor (ON)
- Winnipeg (MB)
Sorted alphabetically by city name.
🏒 Sports
Hockey
- Main: c/Hockey
- Calgary Flames
- Edmonton Oilers
- Montréal Canadiens
- Ottawa Senators
- Toronto Maple Leafs
- Vancouver Canucks
- Winnipeg Jets
Football (NFL): incomplete
Football (CFL): incomplete
Baseball
Basketball
Soccer
- Main: /c/CanadaSoccer
- Toronto FC
💻 Schools / Universities
- BC | UBC (U of British Columbia)
- BC | SFU (Simon Fraser U)
- BC | VIU (Vancouver Island U)
- BC | TWU (Trinity Western U)
- ON | UofT (U of Toronto)
- ON | UWO (U of Western Ontario)
- ON | UWaterloo (U of Waterloo)
- ON | UofG (U of Guelph)
- ON | OTU (Ontario Tech U)
- QC | McGill (McGill U)
Sorted by province, then by total full-time enrolment.
💵 Finance, Shopping, Sales
- Personal Finance Canada
- Buy Canadian
- BAPCSalesCanada
- Canadian Investor
- Canadian Skincare
- Churning Canada
- Quebec Finance
🗣️ Politics
- General:
- Federal Parties (alphabetical):
- By Province (alphabetical):
🍁 Social / Culture
- Ask a Canadian
- Bières Québec
- Canada Francais
- Canadian Gaming
- EhVideos (Canadian video media)
- First Nations
- First Nations Languages
- Indigenous
- Inuit
- Logiciels libres au Québec
- Maple Music (music)
Rules
- Keep the original title when submitting an article. You can put your own commentary in the body of the post or in the comment section.
Reminder that the rules for lemmy.ca also apply here. See the sidebar on the homepage: lemmy.ca
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
We're dangerously close to "it's illegal to be contagious".
If there is no disease there is no contagious.
this is the disturbing reality of the current attitude. People have no idea how important body sovereignty is.
I think most people are ok with you choosing to not vaccinate. The problem is when you choose to inflict that decision on others.
Not vaccinating and not isolating yourself is violating everyone else's body sovereignty.
I don't care if you host diseases. I absolutely do care about you spreading them.
No, we are boosting our immunity.
We don't see natural immunity spike when there are less people taking the vaccine. Which is why Canada is no longer measles free.
The circumstance of dying from a disease due to biological weakness has a suppressive affect on phenotypes which don't provide an immune system capable of fighting the disease. This is basic.
I am not making the argument that we are destroying species immunity to any particular disease by getting vaccines, which is clearly false. When you get vaccines or get a disease, the result is some degree of immunity to that specific disease (or some degree of immunity or maiming or death, in the case of getting disease).
Rather, bolstering the immune system with vaccines is a crutch that, while it may be the best option for an individual to choose, does still permit phenotypes which cannot handle the disease to be passed to offspring.
Obviously, this is a slow process. But also, just as obviously, someone who chooses not to vaccinate and thereby dies from a disease would have, otherwise, potentially passed that weakness on to their children.
this isn't bullshit or a niche theory. It's basic evolution, but in an area that is hard for some people to accept because they don't like it, and want to distance themselves from death, and feel like they are outside of the realm of natural necessity, or because they just can't conceive of biological robustness being that important, or being truly subject to any kind of degradation. But that is a failing to see the scope of the necessity to sustain our genetic robustness - not enforced by some creepy nazi idea is what's "perfect", through eugenics, but through sovereign choice.
And yes, making vaccines available does benefit the species as a whole, because we increase the ways we can fight disease. But those who fight a disease naturally, and actual actually accept the consequences of that, are exercising their individual rights in a way that is also beneficial to the species, by reducing the instances of problematic phenotypes, and (hopefully) breeding if they survive.
IMO vaccine and evolutionary biology is very nuanced, and depends a lot on the individual genetics, type of pathogen, type of vaccine, etc. The net result from people dying off might be moot, and could even be harmful.
Immune science is often taught as an arms race, but that model tends to imply that both sides are constantly gaining beneficial traits. That's true in some cases, like the fever response, which is a beneficial trait we gained at some point, and it continues to be useful.
Meanwhile, other phenotypes are very context dependent for whether they are helpful or harmful. HLA (human leukocyte antigen) for example, that's how our T-cells identify between 'self' and 'foreign' particles. We rely on the tremendous diversity of HLA alleles in the human population in order to survive new diseases. Someone's HLA alleles can be a poor match for a current disease, but very helpful for a future disease. Having them die off now would be a bad thing. Similarly, someone with an HLA combination that makes them more effective against a current disease, may be ineffective against a future disease. Another simpler one is the ABO blood types, where different pathogens (ex. malaria, cholera, smallpox) are better/worse at infecting cells with certain blood types, evidenced by the different proportions of blood types in regions endemic to such diseases.
Evolution is messy, and the evolution of the immune system is messier still. Even if we only look at it from a simplified Darwinian evolution perspective, having genetic diversity might be more important than any shedding of 'weaker' alleles from people dying off because their natural immunity couldn't handle a particular infection.
I appreciate this response, and agree with much of it.
There's some grey-area stuff:
True, but in theory, a good chunk of people would be taking vaccines - and so while there's a selective pressure (mostly on those willing to undergo it), overall diversity would be maintained.
and, as an aside -- alas, simplified is the domain and utility of science. It's how we grasp anything natural at all.
..there are some tidbits I do disagree with, though. mainly:
While that would be a bad thing, it's not like there's selective pressure against having the HLA alleles that would be good for a future disease - more, just that there's selective pressure against not having one for the current disease. Let's say that the theoretical future-disease-preventing HLA alleles are randomly distributed, and that the incidence of death from a current disease roughly matches the incidence of death from car accidents, then the car accidents have just as much of a deleterious affect on the future as the current disease does. That's like the Christian argument "The baby you're about to abort could be the one that comes up with the cure for cancer." ..sure, but it could by Hitler 3.0, too.
The very multifaceted complexity that goes into the entire process of how animals (including us) handle disease has a couple knowable facets:
It works, generally speaking, over the long term, and often enough in the short term
we have added new means of gaining immunity, but with that we also reduce selective pressures on the species, not just for disease-specific immune responses, but any other traits (including but not limited to rapidity of immune response) that impact the capacity to handle and survive a disease
it is clearly selection pressure that has led to effective immune systems in the first place
but even aside from that, the following are my opinions, and though I'm open to the possibility, I doubt they'll change today:
edit: btw, thanks for the genuine civil discourse, I enjoy it.
The most disturbing thing about reality is that we have morons opting their children and neighbors into preventable diseases because of absurd lies they read on Facebook.
Nah. It's not concerning that otherwise intelligent people can't figure out how to deal with their own lives without resorting to controlling others.
Anyone have tips on how to not get stabbed without forcing other people to stop stabbing?
No. You can reasonably take an action against someone that is the same degree of involvement they attempt to do to you. By someone stabbing you, or attempting to, they consent to the same degree of violence against them, by having taken direct action against you.
This is not the same as, for example, someone fleeing from attackers, and knocking on your door, thus potentially drawing the attention of the attackers to you. Of course, you're free to deny the attackers or the victim entry.
So I can legally/morally stab someone who tried to stab me? How is that at all helpful? I don't want to stab anyone.
How would this translate to the measles situation? If someone gives me measles, then I'm allowed to give them back measles? But they already have measles. That's how they were able to transmit it. And I'll still have gotten the disease. I want to maintain my health and not get infected in the first place.
Then don't stab anyone, and prepare for what situations you run into where you know it's possible to be stabbed, but won't stab in return.
Yes. You can get measles from someone, and can give it to them. The fundamental bad actor is the disease itself, and we address that by getting immunity to it, one way or the other.
Get a vaccine. Nobody should every be able to take that right from you.
And what might those preparations look like? How does one prepare for that, as well as for the possibility of getting shot, or being run over by a car while on the sidewalk, or getting mugged/pickpocketted, or getting your credit card information stolen, or having your home being broken into and ransacked, or someone picking up your infant and running away with them, or having your drink/food spiked, etc.
A vaccine is never 100% effective. If it were, then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. 3% of people receiving the measles vaccine don't get immunity, and there's those who can't get the vaccine because they're too young, or are immunocompromised in some way. What option would they have for dealing with their own lives without controlling others?
All preparations for disaster look like a cost-benefit analysis and reasonable actions taken to mitigate those disasters. Sometimes, that means relying on collective tools - laws, incentives, etc., which can be easier sometimes, if it works. Other times, it's internal planning, or physical training, or avoidance of problematic situations.
Another big aspect of preparation that people can do is genuinely coming to terms with the existence of whatever particular problem they're facing. "Radical acceptance", so to speak, though one needs to know the difference between accepting and submitting. When you can't accept something, you end up blindsided by it, shocked and appalled that it can happen to you, or that humans can't just talk it through, or whatever. When you can, you generally see it coming a ways away, and can address it before it becomes an issue for you, instead of thinking "I shouldn't have to deal with this," or "but humanity is better than that, and we can just talk it through."
But, that kind of preparation takes a lot of world-view shifting, and skill-building in processing fears, and for people who don't really have evidence of the benefit, it's hard to pay the cost in time and effort on personal growth in that area. C'est la vie.
Indeed. However, there must be a line for what a collective can or cannot reasonably impose on an individual. And, whether you like it or not, the physical body is a real boundary, and granting a collective governing body power over what you put into or take out of your own body is a larger issue than vaccination, and people will utilize that power against you, not just for you.
This is true enough that as soon as the Democrats started pushing for mandatory vaccinations during covid, I knew and stated that the cost would be abortion. ..and that's exactly what was lost, in many states.
Any power you give the government, will be used all of the ways it can be used, depending on the party in power and the moral fads that the culture goes through - and as you can see with trump and the underlying expressions going on there, these fads aren't always going to be in your favor.
Although there are some areas that are morally more stable, any area that doesn't have fairly universal support will go through this dynamic of flipping what side gets to utilize that power, and in what way it is used.
Case in point:
The Republicans centralized power in the presidency with the USA Patriot act. The Democrats, in power when it expired, renewed it, rather than letting it drop, or (even better) making an act to prevent that centralization of power. Obama utilized that power to great effect, including to fulfill the reason for it's temporary existence. ..and then he renewed it, when it was no longer needed, and after it had expired, because of lack of ability to consider that maybe power isn't always a good thing, and sometimes you need to let go for things to work right.
..and the dems can't keep hold of that power. ..and now that power is Trump's and the reps in general, until their fire burns out.
As a side note: The irony is that maybe Trump, if he thinks the dems will win, might nerf presidential powers out of spite - which would be great, if it sticks.
We're you not just arguing against having laws to disallow stabbing? If not, then I'm not clear on what you mean by "controlling others".
Couldn't this also apply to abuse of power? Accepting that there's the possibility of bad outcomes, and that's the cost of certain benefits, like protecting everyone from some easily preventable causes of death. It sounds like maybe what you're arguing for isn't that exerting control over others in and way is universally bad, but rather that bodily autonomy needs to be protected above all. But if that's the case, I don't understand why you think it's only acceptable to protect it by not actively doing something that violates bodily autonomy, and why it's not okay to actively protect bodily autonomy (e.g. preventing others from inserting undesirable sharp objects into your body, whether that be a knife or an injection or anything else).
I agree that centralization is power is problematic, but this is a whole other problem independent of bodily autonomy. Unless you're saying that controlling others is only bad when it's done by a central power? But you're also making arguments against mandatory vaccination in general, so I'm still unclear on what your stance is.
Are you an anti-vaxxer?
I'm absolutely for the rights of people to either have or refuse vaccines. Of course, in your mind, that probably just equates to being an anti-vaxxer. I get vaccines when it makes sense to me to do so, which doesn't include all vaccines.
To partake in society you have to accept societal contracts. One such contract is to not be a dick to others. If you don't vaccinate yourself against certain things, you are liable for spreading the disease. And thus you are being a dick. And thus you break the contract.
If you excuse yourself from society going forward though, I see no problem with your stance.
I reject societal contracts that do not support individual and body sovereignty. Of course, you can do with that as you will, because.. ..well.. ..sovereignty. Just know that if you take body sovereignty from people in one area, you empower the government to make decisions about your body, as well.
..and as we all have seen, the benevolence of the government is largely dependent on what party is in power, and what societal dynamics are in play. it's.. ..unreliable, at best.
I literally called it, the day Democrats started pushing forced vaccinations, that the Republicans would go for reversal of abortion law. ..and they fucking did, and they fucking succeeded in many ways, and that is direct consequence of permitting the government to violate body sovereignty, even when the voiced arguments do not pertain to it.
So, you can have your contiguous society, with forced social contracts rather than ones people actually are willing to agree to. ..and you'll also have the consequences, whether or not you can cognize how bad that will be right now.
Yeah, honestly you are an anti-vaxxer if your personal feelings (or crackpot theories) negatively affect your perception of vaccine science even slightly. What you're expressing here is an idea that has killed countless people and it will only get worse. Everyone should thank you for bringing back measles though, because your valiant freedom fighting "helped" us in that way.
Crackpot theories.. ..like.. ... how evolution works? ..or how regressive evolution works?
Diseases have killed countless people, and we have multiple vectors (and should have multiple vectors) for addressing them.
We have technology, as in vaccines. This is a good thing.
We have social behaviors including social pressure (which is, unfortunately, often compulsive and not well-aimed by the people that exercise it, but such is life).
We have individual immunity, and the direct biological pressure for health and general genetic robustness, which is also a good thing, even though it kills some of us.
the cool thing is, we're now at a point where there are lots of anti-vaxxers who are totally willing to throw their lives away for the benefit of the species. ..and, their surviving genetic lines and the rest of the species, as their children interbreed with the rest of humanity, will be better off for it. That's true, whether you like it or not. It's also true that forcing vaccination rather than simply providing and incentivizing vaccination is a terribly, terribly flawed strategy which causes far more issues than it fixes.
I understand that you're making social-pressure arguments, and that they are valid in the context you're in. But they aren't the end-all be-all, and they're not fundamentally scientific (or even logical) just because you're trying to support science by using them.
I also know this whole conversation brings up tons of uncomfortable topics, for which I'll probably get yelled at. I just don't care, because being more forceful about an argument, or getting the last word, really has no bearing on the truth of that word.