this post was submitted on 17 Feb 2026
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So we're just going to hash this out every single day for the next 2 years, huh?
Edit: I do find it interesting how many replies to this comment are vague enough that you can't determine which side of this argument they're on, but I guess I did start it myself.
As long as the neo-liberal leaders of the Democrats continue to play the same games with the left as they have been since before I can vote, yes, we'll have to run into this argument every single damn time elections come up. When they decide to embrace progressive policies instead of just jigging the bait for the leftists to get their votes. When the Dems win, they didn't need the left. When they lose, it's all the left's fault. I'm not playing that sadistic little game anymore.
And yet still in 2028 we're going to have people arguing between the milquetoast Democrat and a republican who wants to make camps for undesirables and telling anyone left of center to stay home.
And we're also going to have any centrist telling people that they should've spoken up before, while telling people to shut up, and accept the inevitable milquetoast Democrat now. I remember how much we used to make fun of FOX News for whataboutism. How the hell did the Democrat voters become the party of "What about Trump?"
It's not "what about trump" it's "vote for the person closest to you or get the one the farthest away"
I could give a fuck less about trump, and I'm going to be hungover the day after he chokes to death on a hamburder. I care about advancing left wing goals, and crying you didn't get your way and staying home only hurts that.
Grow the fuck up and actually understand how electoral politics works in this country, because it seems you lack a basic understanding of how the two party system works. We have 2 viable options for the presidency, and people need to come to grips with not getting their perfect candidate because perfect is the enemy of good. If you don't believe me, look around and tell me what of the current trash fire would have also been done by a milquetoast dem?
I understand the US electoral system very well. For example, in the WV Dem primary, Bernie won every single county, and 40k more votes than Clinton. Which is why Clinton won the state. And it does seem to be "What about Trump" since you can't give me a reason to vote for a milquetoast Democrat without including Trump in your equation. Also, both Obama and Biden deported way more immigrants than Trump, so if you're trying to harm reduction, Trump is a better option for that. Stop letting Democrats that want to increase funding for ICE, the border wall, are for regime change wars, and deport more immigrants than Trump be the spoiler candidate.
Man, I can't wait to come back to this statement at the end of the year, DaMummy. I'm sure the guy who is mass rounding up random people (instead of rejecting people at the border) and murdering people in the street will TOTALLY be the harm reduction president, no matter that 2025 was the deadliest year ice has had since 2004, trump is about ✨harm reduction✨
The fact that this and bitching about Bernie after 10 years is your primary argument tells me you're not worth conversing with. I wanted Bernie to win and I was mad about it too. But keeping your hardon for Bernie is only harming the causes you say you support. At least the right is open about their hatred for their fellow man, you're hiding behind being upset at the system and arguing that this fucking president is about harm reduction at all, which is laughable.
Please do come back. I would prefer after his 4 year term, but I don't know if lemmy will be around, or either of us(....and one other guy) but just to set a standard, how many deportations were there under Obama, aka, Deporter in Chief, and how many were there under Biden?
Biden had more raw numbers, but can you tell me who was incarcerated, picked up off the street or refused at the border in those numbers?
If you're comparing raw numbers and not what each one is, I don't care to continue the argument because you're focused on one statistic that can be used disingenuously (as it is here) to conflate two different ways of handling things. Because if you think 1 border return or incarcerated person is the same as someone being snatched off the street, your opinion is meaningless to me. I'm not defending any one of those, but comparing them is dishonest as hell.
OK, well I can't wait for the comparison if you can't tell me the number Trump is aiming to surpass. Or at least how many ICE deportations there were under Biden/Obama, not CPB. Can you at least assure me that Trump will start as many wars as Obama did, or will that also be a harm reduction example?
I've been on mobile and looking for stats in hard, but you're not posting any either. But, checking the data on https://theworlddata.com/us-immigration-statistics-by-year/, ICE removals was actually 80K higher by July 2025 than any of the 5 previous years, and the ICE detention numbers were 18k higher than the previous year's average.
The foreign born and unauthorized immigrant populations also dropped in 2025, as did the border encounters. I guess its easier to call someone a harm reducer when they reduce raw numbers through terrorism and open fascism than it is to actually look at any nuance.
the data
Key US Immigration Facts and Statistics in the US 2025 Immigration Category 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 (YTD) Foreign-Born Population 46.2 million 48.5 million 49.5 million 51.6 million 53.3 million (Jan) 51.9 million (Jun) Lawful Permanent Residents Granted 707,362 740,002 1,018,349 1,173,000 1,063,200 (est.) Data pending Naturalizations Completed 625,400 855,000 967,400 878,500 818,500 Data pending Refugee Admissions 11,840 11,411 25,465 60,014 100,060 27,308 (Q1 only) Border Encounters (Southwest) 458,088 1,956,519 2,766,582 3,201,144 2,901,142 639,826 (Jul) ICE Removals/Deportations 185,884 59,011 81,547 142,580 271,000 (est.) 350,000 (Jul) Unauthorized Immigrant Population 10.5 million 10.9 million 12.8 million 14 million 14.2 million (est.) Declining H-1B Visa Approvals 388,000 398,000 442,000 386,000 400,000 Data pending Naturalization Processing Time 9.0 months 11.5 months 10.5 months 6.1 months 5.5 months 5.2 months ICE Detention Population 38,000 avg 20,000 avg 23,000 avg 34,000 avg 41,000 avg 59,380 (Aug)Data Source: U.S. Department of Homeland Security Office of Homeland Security Statistics, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Pew Research Center, Migration Policy Institute (2020-2025)
Border Encounters and Apprehensions by Year in the US 2025 Border Statistics 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 (Jul YTD) Total Nationwide Encounters 646,822 2,034,687 2,935,787 3,471,209 3,101,382 639,826 Southwest Border Encounters 458,088 1,956,519 2,766,582 3,201,144 2,901,142 627,000 (est.) USBP Apprehensions 400,651 1,734,686 2,378,944 2,475,669 2,045,000 (est.) 235,916 OFO Inadmissibles 57,437 221,833 387,643 725,475 856,142 Data pending Title 42 Expulsions 308,820 1,063,285 1,377,381 531,258 (ended May) 0 0 Peak Monthly Encounters 71,000 (Jul) 213,000 (Jul) 251,000 (May) 370,000 (Dec) 302,000 (Dec) 29,101 (Jan) Lowest Monthly Encounters 16,182 (Apr) 71,000 (Jan) 164,303 (Jan) 154,189 (Jan) 117,883 (Feb) 8,725 (May) Single Adults 295,123 1,284,000 1,698,000 1,856,000 1,625,000 Data pending Family Units 74,981 367,000 721,000 1,154,000 1,089,000 Data pending Unaccompanied Children 30,784 147,000 152,000 137,000 139,000 Data pending Top Nationality: Mexico 253,118 608,037 722,000 775,000 680,000 Data pending Venezuelan Encounters 17,000 48,000 189,000 334,914 285,000 Data pending
Data Source: U.S. Customs and Border Protection Southwest Land Border Encounters, Nationwide Encounters Statistics, DHS Monthly Operational Updates 2020-2025
He already has. If you count Obama expanding operations, he's got 4 and Trump was at 5 last year (and that's not even counting the unlawful kidnapping of a foreign leader). Nigeria, Venezuala, and Iran are all under Trump, and he (like Obama) expanded Yemen and Somalia. And that's not even counting the sabre rattling to NATO nations
But you want to talk harm reduction, what harm was reduced by cutting foreign aid? What harm was reduced by slashing domestic spending on the people who already couldn't survive without multiple jobs? What harm is reduced by ICE snatching people off the streets and murdering civilians for exercising their rights? Or by throwing people into what can charitably be called horrendous conditions at places like Alligator Aushwitz? What harm is reduced by weakening NATO? What harm is reduced by lowering trust in life saving shit like vaccines? I could seriously keep going, but I think I've proved my point.
Seriously, tell me how this is harm reduction? Because all I see is harm amplification and a lazy attempt at gotchas.
I will give you Nigeria, Venezuela, and Iran. But that is just three. Obama didn't start 4,but 5. Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, Libya, and Syria. Though you could make a case that Iran alone might count as like 5 countries, but we're not there yet, though we might be, really soon. And that wars were never declared for those countries, but story for another day. I did only place the term "harm reduction" on deportations and wars though. But since I can't get a deportation number out of you, I'd say that if Trump doesn't reach the 3.1mil deportations that Obama had, it's a reduction.
Yep, because terrorism works, and the ends justify the means.
That's one item of harm reduction. Now keep going and try anything from the rest of my list and come back and compare.
I don't expect you will, so I don't expect I'll reply again.
Unpopular opinion. When it comes to electoral politics, that centrist is right. Voting won't fix anything. Only better candidates and parties will. That is, of course, outside of some sort of revolution or cultural awakening. And if that's your plan, shit or get off the pot.
The general election is absolutely the wrong time to protest vote.The right time to protest vote is in the primary. The primary is the wrong time to think about running. The right time to think about running is all the years before the primary. All things many actually on the left struggle to achieve. And then being incensed when a party that doesn't represent you doesn't represent you. Who could have known?
We're good about protesting on the left. Perhaps to a fault. But outside maybe the DSA. We suck at getting people we would want to vote for, in organizations that stand a chance of winning. You can't effectively elect someone who wants to represent you if there's no one capable of winning that wants to. And it isn't a catch 22. Collectively a lot are sleeping on basic actions we should be taking.
Forget third parties till we reform the voting system. They think we are cuckoo. Maybe we should start acting like cuckoos. Maybe we should stop being the ones being cucked, supporting and raising politicians that don't represent us. And start doing the cucking ourselves. Like the DSA. Put people we want to vote for in any major party primary we can. Yes, even Republican. Till then they aren't going to represent us if they don't have to.
whether you agree with them or not, shaming and ridiculing them is not going to make them agree with you.
I agree completely. Though I personally practice harm reduction at the ballot box, I don't believe that brow-beating people who express a reluctance to vote for a lesser evil into practicing harm reduction is an effective means of garnering their vote. Though it's easy to become frustrated with non-voters or third-party voters and place the blame on them for fascism taking over, the responsibility is really spread across the whole population, and most importantly our electeds and party officials who have consistently failed to present a positive and opposing narrative to the fascists.
The older I get the more relevant this scene from 'Life Of Brian' becomes.
https://youtu.be/WboggjN_G-4
The dumber the dog, the more repetitions it takes to teach it.