[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 32 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (4 children)

What about democracy? Can't voting fix our problems?

[–] AbeilleVegane@beehaw.org 5 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

The voting for leftists into office one is there twice.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 hours ago

Fixed

[–] pineapple@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 hours ago

Thank you, as a democratic socialist this is what I was looking for.

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[–] FreeAZ@sopuli.xyz 37 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

Democratic socialism just means you believe in democratically governed socialism, not that you think you can just vote capitalism into socialism. There's both reformist and revolutionary democratic socialists. I both believe in democracy and also see that the only way to overturn capitalism (at least in the US) would be through revolution. All the democratic part means is that they're opposed to monarchies or dictatorships.

[–] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 20 hours ago

No. That's incorrect. Democratic socialism is always and has always been an opposite to revolutionary socialism. Read some goddamned books. ALL forms of socialism are democratic, essentially by definition, but certainly by historical precedent. The only undemocratic "socialist" movements have been fascist movements using socialist aesthetics.

[–] Confidant6198@lemmy.ml 14 points 23 hours ago (11 children)

Are you saying that you can have undemocratic socialism?

[–] Una@europe.pub 15 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

Isn't that what USSR was, dictatorship?

[–] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 20 hours ago

Good question. No. It was not. Please read about it. There is plenty of writing about the political structure of the USSR, its constitutional documents, its legal and court systems, etc. It is imminently possible for you to learn about it if you're curious

[–] Confidant6198@lemmy.ml 14 points 22 hours ago (6 children)

Dictatorship of the proletariat is democracy for the people

[–] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 3 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

And at what point is it no longer a "dictatorship of the proletariat"? Do you really think, say, the Soviet leaders were looking out "for the proletariat"? Is Kim Jong-Un doing so because the country's official name contains the word "people"?

[–] Una@europe.pub 5 points 22 hours ago (2 children)

How? You still have 1 person having full power instead of being first among equals?

[–] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

What are you talking about about? Go read a goddamned book about the political structure of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, its many voting structures, its multiple state entities, its levels of power of distribution, and THEN try to argue that 1 person had full power.

It's ridiculous to think that your level of ignorance counts as a political perspective on history.

[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 8 points 22 hours ago (2 children)

Stalin was a captain of a team

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 13 points 20 hours ago

Counterpoint:

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -1 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (1 children)

What's the background for this report, who compiled it, what the sources were and so on?

It sounds pretty dubious since it has big ass text at the start saying

This is UNEVALUED information

[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (1 children)

It's a top secret report created by the informational gathering apparatus of a global super power/nation state, with all the interest to get an accurate picture of their geopolitical rival, but also with the interest to keep their population not in the know (not it's like the only time in US history). The fact that it fits with other historical accounts of Stalin by e.g Domenico Losurdo.

Funny how you libs always pull out skepticism when it's against the western narrative. Even if it's unvaluated, it's not going to be significantly off. The CIA is pretty good at what they do fedposting

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -2 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (2 children)

Can you point to any of CIA's metainfo about this file? Since I don't think we have anything more than this is some CIA file, but no info about who compiled this info, what they base it on, how has it been evalued (other than at the time it was apparently unevalued) and so on. You don't even know what the CIA thought of this document. We just know they have it.

Do we just take it as true because it's from CIA, even though we have no other information about it or what?

Funny how you libs always pull out skepticism when it’s against the western narrative

I mean are you against being sceptical of some random ass CIA document with big ass text on top of it about it being "unevaluated information"? Say it ain't so.

[–] Aria@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 7 hours ago

Can you point to any of CIA’s metainfo about this file?

I believe this is the page you're looking for. It's very minimal. https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp80-00810a006000360009-0

[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Can you point to any of CIA’s metainfo about this file? Since I don’t think we have anything more than this is some CIA file, but no info about who compiled this info, what they base it on, how has it been evalued (other than at the time it was apparently unevalued) and so on. You don’t even know what the CIA thought of this document. We just know they have it.

Might as well ask Snowden or a top ranking official

Do we just take it as true because it’s from CIA, even though we have no other information about it or what?

Why do you think they host it?

I mean are you against being sceptical of some random ass CIA document with big ass text on top of it about it being “unevaluated information”? Say it ain’t so.

Do you even know what bias is?

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

It doesn't sound like you have any of the info that would make this a credible document. CIA hosts a shitload of documents and a lot of them are absolute bunk and directly contradictory. They've collected a lot of reports over all the decades they've been around, that's sorta their job and then they evaluate that information and based on that try to sus out the true information. Unfortunately we have no idea what the CIA itself thought of this info, at the time of release they haven't evalued it. It's almost like finding a book in a library and believing it to be credible because it's a well known library that has that book.

Let me ask it this way: what makes you think that this report is credible, factual and trustworthy?

[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Let me ask it this way: what makes you think that this report is credible, factual and trustworthy?

I already answered above. It fits into the picture of historical accounts of Stalin and of how bias and interests work in regards to a nation state and it's geopolitical competitors.

You're convently ignoring the context in which this document exists and how its content relates to it.

It’s almost like finding a book in a library and believing it to be credible because it’s a well known library that has that book

Your try at abstracting something this complex fails. It's more akin having two libraries with two different accounts of history where some books are deliberately hidden (for various reasons, it exists and wasn't destroyed). This is a now a made-public book confirming the other libraries accunt history with their own source

Also:

The CIAs work is sloppy and they lie to themselves in their top secret documents. It was a soviet double agent collecting this

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 0 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

It sounds like you consider this document good evidence because it already aligns with what you believe in and not on the merits of how the information was gathered, how it was verified or any sort of other merits you'd usually evaluate such information when you want to use it as evidence.

And I don't think CIA was sloppy. But this again hasn't been even evalued by them, as it says on big bold letters right at the start. We have no idea what CIA actually thought of this document since we have basically no info on it. Sorry to say.

[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 5 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

We're discussing the account of Stalin and collective leadership vs top down and not the validity of this document. Good try on moving the goal post.

Also It's not good evidence, but a valueable piece of a larger puzzle, where one understands the dynamics of political economy and has to piece it together through these. If you'd read any theory at all, you know history is always written by the dominant class and one has to read through the lines with documents like this.

Sounds like you take the western account of history for granted, and don't engage with different views. It sounds like youre taking Information by diametrically opposed forces at face value. I too would like topics like feminism explained by anti-feminists, anarchism by an anti-anarchist, Marxism by a lib etc. I definitely never engage with what the other side says

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 0 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

You used this document as evidence to support your argument. Of course the credibility and validity of the document is a subject for discussion.

Also It’s not good evidence, but a valueable piece of a larger puzzle, where one understands the dynamics of political economy and has to piece it together through these. If you’d read any theory at all, you know history is always written by the dominant class and one has to read through the lines with documents like this.

We have no idea who actually wrote this document. Just further pointing out how useless it really is. And believe me I'd be really interested to know the backstory of the document from a historical pov.

[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 3 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I used the document to highlight that even in the CIA there were people thinking Stalin is a captain of a team. I did however also point to Domenico Losurdos to underscore how its fits to existing historical accounts from a Marxist perspective

I’d be really interested to know the backstory of the document from a historical pov.

I agree, It's interesting to think about how a classified top secret document like this exists that basically could've been written by a leftie. To have this many points synthesized it required a bunch of fieldwork to come together like this, even if unevaluated. Another interesting aspect to think about is how it relates to current dominant western narratives in regards to current geopolitical rivals

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 0 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

But it doesn't show that CIA thought that, as I've tried to explain. You're taking a random document we know barely anything about as some official or truly held position CIA had on the matter and that's just not what it shows.

I agree, It’s interesting to think about how a classified top secret document like this exists that basically could’ve been written by a leftie. To have this many points synthesized it required a bunch of fieldwork to come together like this, even if unevaluated. Another interesting aspect to think about is how it relates to current dominant western narratives in regards to current geopolitical rivals

I mean we don't know who wrote it, what they did to arrive to their conclusions, what was their goal, position, experience, anything really. For all we know they based it on random chatter someone heard from a friend of a friend's dog walker. That's what makes it worthless as any sort of evidence. We have a random quote or opinion, basically. To have any sort of weight, you'd need something at least, but now we have nothing.

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[–] Plebcouncilman@sh.itjust.works 11 points 23 hours ago (6 children)

Sometimes I wonder how many “Marxists” really have read Marx.

[–] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 15 points 22 hours ago (4 children)

Only those that did know that you can't vote away capitalism.

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Memes

Rules:

What about democracy? Can't voting fix our problems?