this post was submitted on 18 Mar 2026
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submitted 12 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) by Chippys_mittens@lemmy.world to c/lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
 
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[–] Wataba@sh.itjust.works 1 points 51 minutes ago

We don't need ragebait in this world.

[–] FreshParsnip@lemmy.ca 2 points 58 minutes ago

Being sad that black people are in movies isn't oppression

[–] Godric@lemmy.world 7 points 2 hours ago (1 children)
[–] Chippys_mittens@lemmy.world -3 points 2 hours ago

What on earth do you even mean

[–] garbage_world@lemmy.world 7 points 4 hours ago (1 children)
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[–] Bgugi@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago (1 children)
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[–] SwingingTheLamp@piefed.zip 48 points 9 hours ago (15 children)

I hate the word "privilege" used in this context. Words have connotations, and "privilege" conjures up images of playing polo at the country club with the upper crust of one's community, then going back to the office to work as executive vice president of the company your father founded. Yet, the people concerned about social justice seem unreasonably attached to their particular jargon, even if it gets in the way of communication. Over the past 15 years or so, I've seen a handful of people get it when it's explained to them as, "imagine you grew up hardscrabble dirt poor, but also had to deal with racism." But mostly, the online discussions devolve into a fight over the definition of the word privilege. C'mon, let's just ditch the word, ferchrissakes! Keep the concept, call it something more relatable!

Same with "toxic masculinity." Yes, I get it, the "toxic" adjective is a modifier to talk about a particular type of masculinity, but the people who hear it as "masculinity is toxic" have a point, too. People use adjectives as intensifiers. I guarantee that the people talking about "evil homosexuals" aren't adding "evil" to distinguish from the good ones.

[–] bizarroland@lemmy.world 8 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

I personally don't like the idea of the phrase toxic masculinity because I don't believe that the masculine energy is toxic in and of itself. I feel like a more appropriate term would be pseudo masculinity. Because that implies that people are not naturally this way, but they are forcing themselves to act this way in pursuit of some perceived ideal of masculinity.

I mean, humans are frequently guilty of using terms that mean a very specific thing in a much broader sense as a shorthand for clearly communicating what we specifically mean in that instance.

For instance, I have heard people are use the phrase "toxic masculinity" to describe boyfriends that don't want to do the dishes, when the actual correct term is "lazy piece of shit", but for some reason, when communicating this information to other people, it is easier for them to ascribe an issue with the sex of the person than an issue with the choices of the person, implying that the only actual fix is to repair your emotional relationship with your own sex instead of accepting that everyone has a human responsibility to contribute to doing the chores around the house.

Once again, I reiterate that masculinity and masculine energy is not toxic, any more than femininity and feminine energy is toxic, and I also exhort anyone that took the time to read this much to do their best to effectively and accurately communicate using specific language rather than emotional shorthand.

[–] Wren@lemmy.today 4 points 3 hours ago

Love the term "pseudo-masculinity." It takes away from the gender slant of toxic masculinity, implies anyone can have it, and makes clear it's not what masculinity should be.

[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 16 points 5 hours ago

Whatever term you come up with, conservative think tanks will immediately poison. Trying to twist yourself in knots to find the perfect way to express the idea is just failing to understand that the issue is that those who benefit from these systems at the highest levels have every incentive to keep things as they are. They can and will use their captive audience to fuck with any explanation you try to give that's contrary to the system as it exists today. The only concessions they will give will only be to get enough people to pack it in since "we won". And those will only be temporary.

[–] eestileib@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Fact is that as white people in North America, we DO get privileged treatment from the banking system, law enforcement, shopkeepers, bus drivers, random people in the street...

And white people in North America have it their whole lives, and will continue to have it their whole lives for the most part.

Is it unpleasant to be reminded that you'll spend your whole life playing with the White Assist mode, and that every single non white person knows that about you? Yeah.

That there are circles you won't be let into by default because of actions taken by other people? Yeah.

White supremacist ideology is bad for everyone, including white people, but it's bad for white people in an emotional health way, while it's bad for non white people in a life and death way.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@piefed.zip 4 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

The question you have to ask yourself, though, is this: Do I want to scold white people for their privilege, or do I want to get them on my side to fix it? In my experience, rubbing their noses in it is going to set people's minds against you. Yes, they're wrong, yes, they're bad people, but the real world means hard choices between the euphoric glow of self-righteousness, or actual political effectiveness.

[–] orlyowl@piefed.ca 2 points 2 hours ago

The question you have to ask yourself, though, is this: Do I want to scold white people for their privilege, or do I want to get them on my side to fix it? In my experience, rubbing their noses in it is going to set people’s minds against you.

I think you are making the same mistake they do. You can't very well get someone to help fix a problem if you don't let them know the problem exists. Just discussing or explaining white privilege isn't the same as scolding someone about it. The folks who take it that way are going to take it that way no matter what terms we use, because they don't want to admit it exists.

[–] eestileib@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 4 hours ago

I'm so white it looks like my veins got drawn on with a blue sharpie. I went to a segregated prep school.

The "you are playing a multi player game on easy mode and currently you are economically roflstomping the people who are playing on hard mode, and bragging about how well you are doing. Is that who you want to be?" argument was what got to me.

Granted, I used to be male-passing, well paid, healthy, decent looking, I got dealt a very good hand, so that presentation of it found me where I was.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 15 points 7 hours ago (5 children)

fight over the definition of the word privilege. C'mon, let's just ditch the word, ferchrissakes! Keep the concept, call it something more relatable!

I think it's naive to believe whatever terminology you use as an alternative wouldn't eventually end up with the same stigma.

The people who interpret it as "masculinity is toxic" aren't doing it because they have a hearing disability, they interpret it that way as a means to justify their own beliefs.

The same goes for your example of "evil homosexuals". Anyone who is blaming all homosexuals for something does not have to modify them with the term evil for you to know they are being a bigot.

I don't think it's people fighting for social justice who get unreasonably attached to words. I think that describes the people who feign an inability to utilize context or reason when they hear them.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@piefed.zip 5 points 5 hours ago (6 children)

Sure, as somebody pointed out above, any social justice term will be attacked and tarred by well-funded right-wing think tanks. But let's not give 'em a head start by using words that consistently turn off our audience, eh? In my experience, "privilege" and "toxic masculinity" do just that. This example actually bolsters my point: The people using "evil homosexuals" don't need to add the "evil," because they're bigots who believe that homosexuality is evil. Likewise, the people who use "toxic masculinity" don't need to add the "toxic," because they're bigots who believe that masculinity is toxic. (No, I don't actually believe that, but lots of people seem to.)

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[–] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 8 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah there's no magic word choices that make good communicating automatic or guaranteed.

Bad faith pretends otherwise, for cover.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@piefed.zip 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

But that does not imply that all word choices are equal.

[–] Eyro_Elloyn@lemmy.zip 2 points 4 hours ago

Yeah, some are privileged.

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[–] MarcomachtKuchen@feddit.org 9 points 7 hours ago (2 children)

AFAIK there is a term to describe the phenomenon when talking about discrimation : Intersectionality. But I've only read this in German literature so it might not be used internationally.

It describes how discrimination feels is unique and everyone faces different forms of discrimation, but there is some overlap (intersection of circles) between these discriminative experiences. By arguing with Intersectionality your experience is unique to you while still using the umbrella term discrimation. This situation here seems similar to me but instead of the negative discrimination we are talking about the positive privilege. But to me it seems like the concept still applies.

[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 8 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Yes, the term intersectionality was invented here in the states. Conservatives have already poisoned the term and made it into "the oppression Olympics", rather than what it actually is, a framing device to explain that life is different for a black man and a black woman or for a black woman with a disability.

Cause that's the real problem here. US has a high-powered counter-propaganda movement called The Chicago Institute & Friends (Conservative Think Tanks). Any term you come up with to explain how our world is fucked up will be subsumed by conservative think tanks into the worst idea imaginable.

Open borders? You mean letting in criminals by the boatload, rather than a measured response to the harms of immigration quotas.

15 minute cities? You mean communist lockdowns, preventing the free movement of people and ideas. Instead of what it actually is, designing urban spaces to accommodate the people that live there instead of devoting every square foot to car dominance.

White privilege? You mean demonizing people for the color of their skin, exactly what MLK didn't want to happen. Instead of what it actually is, a framing device to show white people that there is more going on in this country than just what directly impacts them.

The fact of the matter is that "the left" (big tent, from liberal to anarchist) doesn't have a messaging problem, it's that the opposition has a lot of funding and influence to drown out whatever point the left is attempting to make.

Sartre's quote on anti-semites here

[–] CainTheLongshot@lemmy.world 5 points 4 hours ago

God damn, it's this shit right here that I've been calling out to my leftists circles whenever the topic of some messaging semantics change comes up. It doesn't matter what terminology we agree on, bad faith actors from far-right think tanks will churn out BS and blast it on Fox news 24/7 until we sit down again and come up with new terminology because this new one isn't reaching people like we intended it to reach. It's a tactic to keep us from actually discussing ways to fix the problems, by instead focusing on those semantics and labels we affix to them.

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[–] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 22 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (13 children)

I also hate the term privilege because it implies those people have something they shouldn't have, i.e. they need to be brought down, when really it's that other people have a disadvantage. This makes the ones labeled privileged defensive because it seems like an attack instead of a call for help.

Everyone should be at least at the same level as the "privileged" ones.

Edit: it seems I might not have been clear as the discussion below seems to perfectly encapsulate why I personally dislike the term privilege because of how it frames things. The majority of privileged people aren't getting a leg up, they just don't have the things dragging them down that underprivileged people do. Maybe an analogy will help:

Imagine a grueling and difficult race everyone is forced to run. The actual distance is arbitrary and doesn't matter, you just need to complete it. The starting line is a staggered mess with people starting forward and backwards from each other to varying degrees. Many of the people in the race rightly point out this is not fair and want the starting lines to at least be the same for everyone. Now, which do you think is more beneficial to having everyone agree/work to move the starting positions; saying the people in front need to move back, or that the people further back should be moved forward?

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[–] nightofmichelinstars@sopuli.xyz 13 points 8 hours ago (3 children)

I'm not married to those terms, but I've never heard anyone suggest better ones for what they mean. These concepts must be communicated somehow. Got any ideas?

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