Lemmy libs never can 😁 : memes

[–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 hours ago

China is authoritarian

So are Google, Facebook and windows. But these entities can't be held accountable because they are "private companies"

[–] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 17 points 5 hours ago

Gonna repost myself but authoritarianism is difficult for libs to define because any serious understanding of the concept reveals it to be a tool for propaganda rather than understanding politics

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 20 points 6 hours ago

All states are "authoritarian" in that they are all tools by which the ruling class dominates the others. The working classes controlling a state still wield its authority to dominate capitalists, fascists, landlords, etc, but this use of authority liberates the majority. The authority question is therefore not a question of amount, but in whose hands, the working classes or capitalists.

[+] Egriaga@lemmy.ml 0 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

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[–] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 8 points 5 hours ago (2 children)

Looking up descriptions online will have people saying all sorts of shit because the actual meaning of authoritarianism is just every state.

Authoritarianism is a political system characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in democracy, separation of powers, civil liberties, and the rule of law. Authoritarian regimes may be either autocratic or oligarchic and may be based upon the rule of a party, the military, or the concentration of power in a single person.

-Wikipedia
A funny thing about Wikipedias short description here means a state without democratic institutions isn't necessarily authoritarian, since it is not moving away from them, they just don't exist within it. Also under this definition the US isn't authoritarian, since it is not based upon the rule of a party, but two parties.

Authoritarianism, in politics and government, the blind submission to authority and the repression of individual freedom of thought and action. Authoritarian regimes are systems of government that have no established mechanism for the transfer of executive power and do not afford their citizens civil liberties or political rights. Power is concentrated in the hands of a single leader or a small elite, whose decisions are taken without regard for the will of the people. The term authoritarianism is often used to denote any form of government that is not democratic, but studies have demonstrated that there is a great deal of variation in authoritarian rule.

-Britannica
"Submission to authority" will appear in the next (and last) source as well. What does it mean? No clue, they don't define it.

Pretty based of Britannica to support the DPRK though - considering the DPRK does

Have a system for the transfer of executive power
Does afford it's citizens political rights and civil liberties. (Without getting into all the propaganda about North Korea, even within the western liberals propaganda apparatus it cannot be denied that the DPRK does afford it's citizens *some rights and liberties. How many and to what extent and which ones specifically? Doesn't matter)

Power is concentrated in the hands of a single leader or a small elite, whose decisions are taken without regard for the will of the people.

Okay so every government with a parliamentary system and a low approval rating then?

The term authoritarianism is often used to denote any form of government that is not democratic, but studies have demonstrated that there is a great deal of variation in authoritarian rule.

I wonder why there is such a variation? Could it be because the concept is flawed? No! It must be because us-foreign-policy

Authoritarianism: The belief that people must obey completely and not be allowed freedom to act as they wish

-Cambridge dictionary
Apparently it's just... A belief system and not actually about how a state enforces itself? Doesn't this make every "vote blue no matter who!" lib an authoritarian? Abolish bedtimes I guess, since that is a belief children should obey the authority of their parents. Abolish homework as well.

Authoritarianism: of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority [OR] of, relating to, or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite not constitutionally responsible to the people

-Merriam-Webster
The second definition is perhaps the best one available, though it is kind of yank-brained. The UK doesn't have a constitution. It is authoritarian, yes, but not because of a lack of a legal document. It also decries the concentration of power, so that would be every centralised state apparatus.
And what does "constitutionally representative to the people" even mean? Does this not also require the constitution continually is changed as the will of the people changes? I agree that would be a good thing, but that would mean most governments are authoritarian, considering how many have constitutions with bits that leave them excempt from responsibility to "the people".
Finally this definition doesn't actually care about what the government does, just that it is not constitutionally beholden to "the will of the people

[+] Kangae_Hishiryo@scribe.disroot.org -6 points 4 hours ago (5 children)

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[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 12 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

look at 996.

Been illegal nearly half a decade and was only a thing in around 40 of the large tech firms around the 2019 tech boom before being ruled illegall by the supreme people's court in 2021.

barely mention Winnie the Pooh inside China or they’ll go to a “reeducation camp”

Straight up lies you should see any miniso in any city lmao

repress violently every single protest or criticism to the Party-State,

Not true also we have party offices in every town and city as well as direct lines to them through the 12345 hotline specifically for voicing criticism.

not to mention the Great China’s Firewall.

The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. I support it and so do many others as the alternative is plain to see. Also everyone has a VPN we’re not living in ignorance it is in fact people like yourself who are massively ignorant about us and our country.

I wish you people would educate yourselves before talking idiotic nonsense it gets tiring having to repeat the same things over and over.

[+] Kangae_Hishiryo@scribe.disroot.org -3 points 4 hours ago (3 children)

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[–] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 9 points 3 hours ago

both are shit

This is the least nuanced take available and is just rhetorical cover for "status quo good"

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 11 points 3 hours ago

Yes, and only on paper, because even today Chinese companies do that and more (like 007) at will without the government telling them anything, just as Jack Ma said that was desirable, and there is indirect evidence that the Chinese government has supported them.

Do you have any proof because I certainly don't work anything more than 50 hours a week even during busy season, none of my friends do either, and the data says the average is around 46.

Chinese government you are defending a tyranny as much as if the one you were defending was the American one.

No I like my govenrment just like 95% of my compatriots do according to Harvard. They have done so much for my village and Chinese people as a whole it's honestly not surprising.

I live on a country (Venezuela) that sucks China’s fucking balls and believe me, I have been able to notice the effects of that in my fucking 24 years of life in this fucking hell.

Yeah? You being a reactionary shithead is Chinas fault?

There’s no good government out there, just fucking shitty demons that if were all killed it would be the Heaven in Earth.

Infantile nonsense. Are you sure you're not 12?

[–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 hours ago

Both are shit but one of them I need to invent a new reality to make it look really bad. Every single fuck thing you describe is a exageration or do not exist. Give me where someone got to a re-education camp for mentioning winnie the pooh, are you this illiterate to believe that a government would waste resources to persecute people for this shit? Even the shithole fascist country of USA didn't do shit with all shit with Trump/JD Vance, the worst thing that happend was a tourist allegedly revoke entry because of found memes in their phone.

[–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

can barely mention Winnie the Pooh inside China or they’ll go to a “reeducation camp”

LMAO.

[–] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 9 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (1 children)

There's like a whole Disney world ride with him in china lol. This has been the weirdest lie every dumbass buys, right next to "le Chinese bots" as if the "biggest reddit city" wasn't a US military base.
It's always funny being accused of "falling for Chinese propaganda" by someone who unironically believes Winnie The Pooh stories.
Or Uyghur stories for that sake, though I can lend them a little more patience, since you have to read a little bit of the "report" to realise it.

[–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 8 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Uyghur people at least did go to a reeducation camp but what happened with them is not what they think and the government had a real reason to waste resources on that, to contain terrorism and the "genocide" have more """""documentation""""(written by the same fucking weirdo) so I can understand people falling for this shit.

But the winnie the pooh bullshit is on the same level of everyone in north korea has the same haircut but also can be killed if they have the same haircut of Kim Jong-un

[–] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 4 points 3 hours ago

Uyghur people at least did go to a reeducation camp but what happened with them is not what they think and the government had a real reason to waste resources on that, to contain terrorism and the "genocide" have more """""documentation""""(written by the same fucking weirdo) so I can understand people falling for this shit.

Yeah exactly. Honestly wish people knew what happened instead of the propaganda, because I'd love to see it treated like a case study. It should have been seen as a novel data point when it comes to public policy about curtailing religious radicalisation. Instead it became a redditism written by a man "on a mission from god to crush communism".

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

This is what we tend to mean by sinophobia. There's a difference between knowledgeable and nuanced critique of the CPC and PRC in general, and repeating the most bog-standard confidently incorrect bullshit you can find. This utter chauvanism is spoken the same way European colonizers spoke about Africans back in the height of colonialism, and still today in some cases.

Or if not, look at 996

Illegal, limited largely to the 40 companies in Beijing and Shanghai. The average working hours in China is 46 per week.

the mere fact that anyone can barely mention Winnie the Pooh inside China or they’ll go to a “reeducation camp"

Also bullshit, Winnie the Pooh is legal and fairly popular.

the fact that they repress violently every single protest or criticism to the Party-State

Again, bullshit. Criticism is popular and constructive in China, and protests do happen infrequently. Most people support the government though so it doesn't come to that.

or the fact that they have the biggest data fusion and surveillance network of the world

Incorrect, Five Eyes countries do. This is projection from the west.

just to control what can be said, thought, looked at, searched or done

Incorrect, brainwashing does not exist.

not to mention the Great China’s Firewall.

Which is done to help develop a Chinese sovereign internet free of foreign influence, such as from western tech giants.

or is it that for you, all that independently-checked and blindly peer-reviewed facts are just a “USA propaganda”.

None of what you said is peer-reviewed.

[–] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 5 points 3 hours ago

These are just two different models of authoritarism.

There are four different models presented. Thank you for putting this first so I know not to waste my time reading the rest.

[–] Kangae_Hishiryo@scribe.disroot.org -4 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

About "submission to authority", it talks by itself: you have to think what the president or leader thinks, to want what they wat and to hate what they hate, and if you dissent even just a bare minimum, you'll be paid with physical, mental and social violence.

[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 8 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

With all due respect, this is baby's first anticommunist propaganda and we've all debunked these claims four million times.

[–] Kangae_Hishiryo@scribe.disroot.org -4 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Well, give me the studies, arguments and independent periodistic reports that are clearly not subject to interests conflicts.

Because I have them.

Again, you all are being, blind,bManichean and naive by basically cherry-picking and looking to another side when there's information that doesn't support your beliefs, just to attack the US (that, let's accept it, it's as authoritarian as China, but in a very different way).

Again, I hate both equally, and for me would be better if both Trump and Xi Jing Ping died.

[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 10 points 3 hours ago

Well, give me the studies, arguments and independent periodistic reports that are clearly not subject to interests conflicts.

Because I have them.

Lol no you don't, everything you think you know about anticapitalist societies has been told to you by capitalist societies. Might as well ask the Tsar what he thinks about the commoners (fun fact, the colonialist powers that gave you your indoctrination invaded Russia during the revolution to fight alongside the Tsar against the commoners).

Again, you all are being, blind,bManichean and naive by basically cherry-picking and looking to another side when there's information that doesn't support your beliefs

Are you just stringing together reddit words? Neither of us has presented anything yet, how can we be "cherrypicking" things that haven't been presented. Are you in some kind of fugue state? All that's happened is that you've stumbled in here like a drunk in a museum and vomited your terribly weak propaganda all over the displays.

[–] Kangae_Hishiryo@scribe.disroot.org -2 points 4 hours ago (3 children)

It is the same as the United States and Silicon Valley; I won't defend China because I hate America, just as I can't ally with Baphomet just to kill Lucifer.

I am politically pessimistic, so I don't believe that any good state, government or politician really exists, they are all equally disgusting and putrid, and as such, I hate each and every one of them equally.

[–] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 8 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

I will defend China because it's doing good. It has lifted 100s of millions out of poverty.nit is the only country that is on track to hit the goals set by the Paris climate agreement - many years ahead of schedule. It invests heavily in public infrastructure, to the good of the people. It has become a fantastic producer of solar energy panels, which will be needed to ensure a livable future - in fact China does so many wonders in the fields of climate science, energy production and so much more. It has one of the best democratic systems I have ever seen - and that shows in the belief its citizens have in the democratic processes of China. It is one of the only countries that has taken Big Tech seriously - curtailing it rather than letting it foment genocides and spread misinformation. It is the only country that actually makes billionaires answer to the law. It has made great strides with it's anti-corruption campaigns as well, something I wish I would see elsewhere.
The critiques I have of the nation are likewise being rectified. LGBTQ rights are constantly being expanded for example.

Why do you assume support of a country is contingent on how one feels about another country?

I don't hate the US because of anything to do with China. I hate the US because of what the US is and does.

You have a very simplistic worldview.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

This is Baphomet slander. They're not evil.

[–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 hours ago

Good choice with Baphomet, a propaganda campaign to persecute the Templar Order because they became too powerful.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 1 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

Noo, if you admit that there can be more than one bad thing, you've fallen for western propaganda! For there is only one bad thing: The ~~bourgeoisie~~ west!

/s

[–] Kangae_Hishiryo@scribe.disroot.org 0 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah lmao

And, again, I hate US too, but I hate every government/state/party/politician equally, so well... I'm just really pesimistic, more as I live in Venezuela, that basically divinizes China, and here we can barely even exist peacefully; just now we even have an arbitrary curfew for the army to steal everything they want in my town.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 4 hours ago

Oof, that's tough. Are there any mutual aid groups in your area to reach out to?

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net -3 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

Here are some definitions from A Modern Anarchism, by Daniel Baryon (aka "Anark").

Authoritarianism: The degree to which a power structure monopolizes control over the total social implementation of some power.
Domination: The degree to which some power structure utilizes coercion, violence, and/or deception to achieve its ends.

And his definition of power:

When I say power I mean, quite simply, “the ability to successfully enact one’s will.”

Please explain logically, how the term "western propaganda" would apply.

Edit: Sniff sniff, it smells like someone (deliberately?) misunderstands what the word "monopolization" means. Did Cowbee's blocked ass comment already?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

Based on this, Anark makes it seem like authoritarianism is both good and necessary as long as it's the working classes holding the authority. Same with whatever degree of domination is minimally required to prevent capitalists and fascists from overturning this. I don't really think it's "propaganda" so much as the words "authoritarianism" and "domination" are deliberately picked to sound scary.

Edit, responding to your edit: What's with that response? Why brag about blocking me? That's very silly behavior. I don't think I've misunderstood anything, and it's certainly not deliberate. The proletariat monopolizing control is a good thing.

[–] defaultusername@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

That would be like comparing Marx's definition of "dictatorship" to the modern definition of the same word, complete with all of its societal connotations.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Sort of. Marx had the same concept of authority and dictatorship, in that they belong to classes, and therefore should belong to the working classes. The anarchist critique of authority presented by Anark doesn't make it seem bad at all.

[–] defaultusername@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

The issue with using language such as "dictatorship" and "authoritarian" is those words have specific negative colloquial connotations.

For example, one of the dictionary (Merriam-Webster) definitions of "authoritarian" is:

of, relating to, or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite not constitutionally responsible to the people

This definition specifies a singular "leader or an elite" and would be incompatible with a definition that includes rule by the proletariat.

Similarly, here is one of Merriam-Webster's definitions for "dictatorship":

a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a dictator or a small clique

My point being not that these definitions are absolute and cannot be changed, but currently in western societies, that the definitions describe rule by a singular elite leader or small group of leaders who have absolute, or near absolute power over their populace.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

I understand, it's all a part of what we have to deal with in the battle of linguistics to make our ideas clear.

[–] defaultusername@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 52 minutes ago* (last edited 52 minutes ago)

It's nothing new for a society to change their language over time to make it more palettable to a larger group of people. For example, it is no longer considered acceptable to use the r-slur or the f-slur (not "fuck", but the other one), whereas 10-20 years ago, it was considered normal to use those words.

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