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sent from a disposable whonix qube
Honestly, it's bonkers that the standard, default approach for all mainstream browsers is to let every random website in the world run any arbitrary code it wants on your computer.
Yeah, they usually attempt to sandbox it, but still. Sometimes sandboxes can be escaped. And sometimes the code can do significant harm while still inside its sandbox.
Most websites would break, or not even display, without javascript. Sure, it's bonkers for you, but an alternative browser that can't immediately show a website that works perfectly well in Chrome wouldn't get much of a user base.
I hate javascript
Iβm not sure why there is a downvote on thisβ¦ unless the downvoter thinks you donβt hate javascript enough?
Got to pump up those hate numbers bro.
Most websites from when I was a kid did not need JavaScript. Heck, they didnβt even have any JavaScript on many of them! No CSS either, just HTML and images (which were very slow to load on dialup).
Because we fucking designed it that stupid that way, that's exactly grandparent's point
Most websites would break, or not even display, without javascript.
I use NoScript -- I'm well aware.
But a lot of those websites could function without javascript. A lot of websites use it unnecessarily, for reasons such as:
They want their ads and trackers and other malicious code (such as soft paywalls) to work as intended.
They want to add fancy cosmetic elements to the content and are too lazy to think about failing gracefully and still displaying the content if javascript isn't working.
They built the website in a framework that depends on javascript, and are again too lazy to bother worrying about graceful failure if javascript isn't working, even if their content could, in theory, be displayed just fine without it. (Or maybe the framework developers deserve a bit of the blame for that laziness, since they could have made graceful failure a feature of the framework, but chose not to.)
In a hypothetical world where most browsers didn't allow every website to run arbitrary code, then every website would be forced to take that into account and only depend on javascript when it's absolutely necessary for the website's core functions.
You are allowing webpages to load?
You guys turn on computers?
You guys use electricity?
Onga booga ogg?
β
I went to see the thread in your instance because I thought it didn't federate properly. And the page for weird reasons loaded without css, which felt very appropriate for the thread.
No. I load the webpages.
Those last two panels are so far past the inconvenience I'd ever be willing to put up with. I'm not sure how it could ever be worth it.
Bottom left is a super-convenient built-in feature of Qubes OS, via qubes-whonix. I just click a button and a new disposable whonix qube is generated from the template, and it only takes seconds to boot. When I'm done with it, I close the window, and the disposable qube is automatically deleted.
Bottom right is my default, since I don't like broken sites.
Okay I just did some cursory research and it doesn't sound simple. Is it just installing qubes-whonix and creating a template (I'm guessing a yaml config or similar)?
As far as sites with JavaScript being "broken", that one puzzles me. I have tried turning off JavaScript in the past and probably 70% of websites became fully non functional. That shouldn't be the case, but it often is, and my impression has been that this has gotten worse, not better. I'm a web developer and no one talks about progressive enhancement anymore and frankly my coworkers have mostly thought it's silly to even try to support users who turn off JavaScript.
Okay I just did some cursory research and it doesn't sound simple. Is it just installing qubes-whonix and creating a template (I'm guessing a yaml config or similar)?
During the installation of Qubes OS, you can select a checkbox to have Whonix templates and qubes automatically installed. After installation, you can simply click a launcher to start an app like Tor browser in a new disposable whonix qube from the disposable whonix template. It really is that simple. Installing Qubes OS does take a while though.
As far as sites with JavaScript being "broken", that one puzzles me. I have tried turning off JavaScript in the past and probably 70% of websites became fully non functional.
Yes, those sites which become non-functional without javascripts are very much broken.
That shouldn't be the case, but it often is, and my impression has been that this has gotten worse, not better.
Yes, much of the web is broken. On a related note, much of the web is infested with malicious ads and trackers.
I'm a web developer and no one talks about progressive enhancement anymore and frankly my coworkers have mostly thought it's silly to even try to support users who turn off JavaScript.
That's a shame. And yeah, those are basically just dead sites. If they're non-functional then there's really no point for them to exist.
As the web continues to devolve, with a growing graveyard of dead sites (and an increasing prevalence of malicious scripts), I hope that more people wake up to the reality that this is bad. It's similar to the dead-end that is google's android. Eventually they'll pull it away and leave a lot of people scrambling for their next option. I think the modern web will go through a similar transformation one day. I hope so.
I will give qubes-whonix a shot, you have convinced me!
There are certain functionalities that cannot be done without JavaScript. In my perfect world either no one would abuse JavaScript with ads and other shitty design choices, or at least I'd have an easier time with toggling it off/on. For now I'm leaving JavaScript on because it's simply far too inconvenient otherwise. Browsers are pretty good about preventing actual harm if you have UBO installed though.
Out of curiosity, what harm are you concerned about JavaScript doing with an ad blocker and while loading sites within a container? That seems extreme to me.
I have never heard the bottom left take anywhere before, though.
Having said that, Firefox+ublock+noscript rules.
I have never heard the bottom left take anywhere before, though.
β¨οΈ until now β¨οΈ
"You are, without doubt, the strangest online-script user I've ever heard of."
"But you have heard of me!"
;-)
[Edit: Sorry, slipped into wrong language before...]
You can block JavaScript with uBlock, BTW!
Had a look into the ublock settings.
The one I found seems to be more of a nuke-grade total disabling, as opposed to the fine-grained approach of the noscript extension.
UBlock's approach is that you disable it for every site in the settings and then whitelist per site. Seems sensible enough to me. How does noscript do it?
I can't convince my wife to even use an add blocker, because it makes some (terrible) websites unusable (and you need an entire one additional click to disable it, it's too much effort), blocking JS would make the entire internet unusable for normies.
I can't convince my wife to even use an add blockerβ¦
Can you convince her to use a subtraction blocker?
A subraction facilitator. It enables the surgical excision of unwanted, harmful and stupefying noise.
bonus meme:
Does this comic use that dyslexic font? If so, nice touch.
Hey, so there are a few threads I can't see from this instance due to defederations and I wanna respond anyway.
@Digit@lemmy.today open dyslexia font? nice touch.
Thanks. Yeah, it's OpenDyslexicAlta Bold. It felt like a good option for a meme font that was kinda different and maybe easy enough to read to make it useful too.
@Onomatopoeia@lemmy.cafe That makes it easier for dyslexics?
Possibly for some, as @Ludicrous0251@piefed.zip said. I think it would probably be more beneficial for those who are introduced to it at a young age. Otherwise it takes some time to get used to it, and I did end up falling back to the fonts I had been using. But I do like OpenDyslexicAlta font and think it makes a good meme font, so yeah.
Okay so that's my response to the chain of comments quoted above. Sorry I can't give y'all upvotes due to the defederation, and sorry it took me so long to realize there were comments which were hidden from me. I do try my best to respond to everything that seems directed at me or which I can offer a worthwhile response.
The next chain of comments is much longer (it's a really good one too), and I'm thinking I'll make one or more responses when I get back online a while from now.
π©·
I'm currently testing just outright blocking all scripts through uBO, and to be honest it is not usable. I will use it for a little longer, then for sure disable it. A lot of websites just refuse to load (thanks, SPAs), and those that do often have little interactions that break, thus making the pages hard to use or even outright unusable.
To give some examples for those that haven't tried this: images may refuse to load (js based lazy load implementation), dropdown menus almost never work, search option usually doesn't work (and if it does it's only because it goes to a different page, which is fair), comments probably won't show up, pretty much anything "live" won't work. Oh and let's not forget the captchas and all the proof-of-work blockers.
For me the only really interesting part about this experience is that imgur refuses to load, even if you have a direct link to an image.
Quick question (just interested here) I'm pretty new to Linux (for 3 days now if I remember correctly) but if you guys disallow scripts how does that work on sites like my own website? Mine doesn't run any ads or trackers very conciously because i'm against it (and any type of commercialism, for that matter), however it does use a lot of script just in order to work.
This disabling scripts thing is really for hardcore privacy enthusiasts. Just install librewolf on your linux box, change the DNS on your router to block ads and you're good.
The reason i say it's for enthusiasts is that it will break everything as soon as you do it. And i mean it. The modern web is not useful without java script. Only websites designed specifically for working without javascript will still work.
I use noscript extension and so every new site I access I have to whitelist it if I don't find it too sus
exactly this, I've been using noscript for at least 15 years by now, probably longer. It's annoying, sometimes. But it's worth it always.
It depends on the site. Some sites which leverage javascripts are still usable without the scripts. And there is a spectrum of usability. Lemmy is a good example. Most lemmy instances which are open to the public (without captchas or login) are generally usable without javascripts. Some features don't work, but knowing the path to the page allows manually getting there without javascript buttons. So like, adding /?sort=TopHour to the end of a lemmy instance's url sets the sorting for the page to top posts in the past hour. However, some other features don't seem to work at all. But then there are lemmy instances which utilize mlmym, which basically replicates old reddit and works 100% without javascripts. And then there are instances like mbin, which is designed to be a modern fediverse experience which does not require any javascripts, and it works very well.
When I load a site, any site, if I get a blank page or a bunch of placeholders for javascript elements, I just close the tab and move on. Sometimes if I'm curious, I'll switch from "Basic Page Style" to "No Style" (Alt+V Y N) to see if there's anything hidden beneath the surface.
Its not related to this but Tempermonkey amd scripts is insanely good experience.
