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A thread of the posts by @cait.bsky.social. They read as follows:
I had my first talk therapy session with my new therapist and she hit me with the "you're very self-aware" ☹️
not the "pleasure to have in class" of therapy
that's right, I know all the tools and have developed countertools so they no longer work. welcome to thunderdome Link to post
We don't negotiate with therapists.
We don't negotiate with the rapists
A series of circumstances have made me effectively resistant to CBT, and sadly not the kick-based one. "Talk to yourself as you would to a friend", they say to the dude who has never had any and therefore has no idea of what does that even mean
Ask you doctor if stoicism is right for you.
Stoicism is just sparkling loneliness.
I saw it as the philosophy of the (wage) slave.
There's a few different 'end states' to stoicism.
Realizing that you have control over your own emotions opens you up to the ability to counter emotional reactions, e.g. despair at being a wage slave. Despair will keep in wage slavery, because there's no way to make it better. Stoicism is ignoring despair. Intellect loads the gun, instinct knows what happens when you pull the trigger, and, by not letting your emotions choose the target, you go for the one that causes the greatest good and next thing you know you're getting picked up at a McDonald's across state lines.
I wanted to smack this one coworker so damn hard. He shouldn't shut up about it like it was the answer to all my problems, and I'm just standing there like, "You mean the thing I've been doing literally most of my life?!"
When I had friends we’d constantly insult each other.
“Talk to yourself as you would to a friend”
I've never heard of this technique. The one CBT technique that I know is labeling your thoughts (according to the type of cognitive distortion) and countering them. If you do it long enough, your thinking is supposed to change. Changing any habit is difficult, though.
I think the idea is that, when you're judging yourself really hard for something you've done, you're asked to consider what you would think of a friend who had done the same thing. A lot of the time people would view the friend as having a made a forgivable mistake, even though they're treating the behavior in themselves as evidence of an irredeemable and permanent character flaw. So it's like, use supportive language when you talk to yourself. Remind yourself of all you've done right and all you've overcome, that sort of thing. Forgive yourself and build yourself up. It's a specific instance of the kind of labeling-and-countering you're talking about.
It's also that what you want out of the friend is not for them to run away or apologize profusely, it's to own up, apologize, and try to be better next time
Talk to yourself as you would to a friend
I prefer to be honest with myself. While I don't saddle my friends with my problems.
The point is to be kind to yourself. You should be honest with your friends, but you should make efforts to frame that honesty in a caring and positive light, ensuring them that they're safe with you and that you're raising your concerns out of love for them.
The therapist's point is that most people know to treat they're friends that way, but tend to be much harsher and less generous with themselves. So: cut yourself some slack, is the message.
You could try needles or sounding or a cage. Kicks aren't the only option!
I’ve always heard talk to your inner child/talk to yourself with the compassion you’d show a child
As someone who grew up constantly criticized, still no idea
How you would treat a child, how your childhood self should have been treated not how you were treated as a kid. If a kid came up to you with your problems what would you say?
Take the criticism for example. Would you not tell the kid some along the lines of "that sucks, bud. Its not really your fault. I've been there and made it through, you can too."
Just what I always needed! Condescention and dismissal!
wait what? isnt... being self-aware a good thing?... pleasure to have in class? i have got to beissing something here.
Self-awareness is a good thing, but it’s also the bottom of the barrel when fishing for compliments. In therapy, specifically, the implied sentiment is, “Well, at least you know how fucked up you are.”
She’s making the comparison to the “pleasure to have in class” line, because it’s similar. If a teacher genuinely has good things to say about a student, it’s probably going to be more specific (i.e. – they were inquisitive, a quick study, made their peers laugh, etc). “Pleasure to have in class,” by contrast, is a generic compliment that doesn’t really say anything.
EDIT: Okay, so based on a few of the latest responses, I felt that I should clarify something. I don’t think people who use these phrases intend for them to be insults or demeaning in any way—this includes Cait’s therapist in the original post. It’s just that it can be perceived that way, which is what I think the post was making fun of.
If you’re also an introspective, self-critical person, please don’t take someone saying this to you as an affirmation of your faults. It’s almost certainly an innocuous and genuine observation.
but it’s also the bottom of the barrel when fishing for compliments.
I can see that you have good intentions...
Really, though, there is no bottom of the barrel. Self-awareness is something that some people in therapy genuinely lack. Good intentions are something that some people genuinely lack. Kindness is something that someone people genuinely lack. Being capable of being unobtrusive for others is something some people genuinely lack.
These are not the bottom of the barrel, but solid foundations you can build from. Someone with good self-awareness can give constructive feedback both in session and irl. Someone with good intentions will actually try to improve rather than use therapy as a place to vent. Someone who is kind will use the skills and motivation they gain in therapy to build a nice community for themselves because it is reciprocal.
Imagine OOP except without self-awareness. Their subconscious has developed countertools that make therapy ineffective but they are not able to describe those countertools or even know their functioning. All they can say is that the therapy doesn't work. That sucks so much worse than the situation OOP is actually in.
Imagine OOP
Ever since I played Control I only read that as Object Of Power
it stands for Object Oriented Programming, actually
/s
Oh my god I literally just now got why my therapist kept saying that. I hate people do this and then expect me to get it. Especially therapists they should know better. If you try to sugarcoat it I won't get it almost guaranteed. Fucks sake what a waste of a time she was. Should have known something was up with how defensive about Israel she was...
I don’t think your therapists necessarily meant it in an insulting way.
… with how defensive about Israel she was…
Oh. Yeah, time for a new therapist, then. Can’t expect healthcare professionals to share all of your political beliefs, but not simping for genocidal ethnostates is a pretty low bar.
Should have known something was up with how defensive about Israel she was…
Holy shit, your therapist should not be debating politics with you! That's right up there with your therapist trying to convert you to their religion or praying with you. That's a line that shouldn't be crossed.
I don't the only that's necessarily what your therapist was getting at.
I'm not defending her stance on Israel btw. Also her stance on Israel might imply religious beliefs and that's a whole other conversation.
However, I disagree with the commenter that said self-awareness is a good thing.
If you want to go through life empowering others, avoiding doing any harm of any kind, and leaving the world somehow better for your existence, then yes self awareness is a good thing.
However, if you want to be happy, satisfied, and go through life being comfortable and not require therapy, then self awareness is most definitely not a good thing.
That is to say, self awareness is highly correlated with anxiety and depression.
As a psychotherapist, working with people who are self-aware is a pleasure. I wouldn't ever say that to someone if not meant as a genuine compliment.
Although I believe not many of our patients actually are as self aware as they think. I think we as humans often are good in introspection where it's easy and comfortable to do so, while glaring over pretty blatant cognitive errors in some other parts, and this is usually where problems arise and disorders develop. And interestingly some people seem to think of themselves as someone who's perfectly introspective but just for some external, unchangeable factor immune to any kind of positive change. Maybe they could feel irritated about the compliment, because in their minds it reinfoces their idea of being helpless against their problems (in the sense of: I already know everything, it's just not possible to change anything or I would've already done that)? I could imagine that's how I would feel, but of course it's just a guess.
It can be, though quite often anxiety can manifest as being too self-aware all the time, to the point that it's getting in the way of actually enjoying life.
aaaaah yes fair i can see that, sounds a smol bit like me but bit more negative... good to know.
It's also worth pointing out, I think, that if you're only aware of your weaknesses and such, but don't/can't recognize your strengths, then you're not really that self-aware
"You're very self-aware" is basically a meme in the corners of the internet that discuss trauma. It's a genuine compliment on the part of the therapist, but also an implied admission that they won't be able to help you.
You're already aware of the observations they would make and the tools they would propose, so you might as well skip to the end and look for another therapist.
I'm so done with therapy. I've been going since 1989 and whilst there have certainly been some worthwhile insights, I believe the whole thing is as much about propping up the economic stakeholders (the 'industry') as it is about effective help. It's a lazy no-effort button GPs, employers, friends, anyone, can press to rid themselves of listening to your 'problems'. So you pin all your hopes on it to find relief. It's such a let down.
There are so many issues. Firstly, it is situated with a culture. A western capitalist culture. I reckon it's all about making you feel less like the obvious wage/mortgage slave you are and more like an 'empowered' 'aspirational' boss. CBT is definitely gaslighting. But the biggest elephant in the room is how the 80% of your problem -- the societal and market forces pushing down on you -- are never referenced as the cause. They are scarcely offered an a discussion point. Like, the very thing which fucks you up is indiscussible. It's always what 'you' can do. Basicallly it's: 'you've got an attitude problem'.
CBT is definitely gaslighting.
More of us need to start saying this. All therapists are powerless to help you with the existential angst inherent to living within a Western capitalist system, but many of them will flat out deny that current material and economic conditions are a root cause of many societal problems that lead to chronic stress and mental illness.
CBT is jank as fuck. You can't reframe your way out of poverty, especially not once you start developing physiological issues related to chronic stress and depression. The notion of it is offensive to me, and the CBT worksheets I was given are the epitome of paternalism. What a waste of time. I have had some luck with using DBT strategies on my own though, and I'm hoping to get referred to a DBT therapy group. Group/peer support has been more helpful than I had thought it would be.
Ok but it's great for what it's great for. CBT can't fix poverty, but it can fix a tendency to let minor setbacks spiral into full blown panic attacks or an inability to ask loved ones for help.
Plenty of problems aren't the sort therapy can help with despite them having huge mental effects. But plenty of people have problems therapy is actively good for. In the same way therapy won't fix your (rational) economic anxiety, if you torpedo every relationship you're in communism won't fix you, but DBT might.
Is there actual evidence that CBT actually works? It's always thrown out there as something that helps, but it doesn't. It doesn't work.
It depends if you're really into it. Personally I don't like my testicles being hurt.
My understanding is that it’s the best method we have at the moment, but might still be ineffective for as much as half of all patients who undergo it.
So, yeah, it kind of sucks, but no other intervention has a better body of evidence behind it. Our understanding of mental illness is unfortunately just very limited.
I seem to recall that, consistently, the quality of the therapeutic relationship is the most important factor for improvement. In other words, get a therapist you like rather than one specialized in a certain branch of therapy 🤷♀️
Is there actual evidence that CBT actually works?
Yes! In fact, that's its biggest selling point. It's an evidence-based therapy.
Just go on google scholar, type in "CBT meta analysis" and read the results