I kid but also listen to jazz every day.
Join us at !jazz@lemmy.world if you dig.
this post was submitted on 03 May 2026
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Just because you didn't understand anything that I said doesn't mean I said little.
I never claimed otherwise. But if you don't understand what avant-garde is, just say so. Because you're honestly embarrassing yourself at this point.
I'm not arguing about taste. People can like avant-garde if they wish. They can like dadaism, sure. You can go see Yoko Ono live in concert, I'm not stopping you.
But what you don't seem to understand is that there is a philosophical movement underpinning both avant-garde and dadaism. That philosophy is the deconstructionism of post-modernism. And it made the claim that because western musical notation originated in the west, that it's associated with colonialism, and therefore an anti-colonialist movement should reject western-style music.
The error in that reasoning is, as I've pointed out multiple times, that "music theory" ≠ "western musical notation". And you can continue digging in your heels while trying to conflate the two, but it doesn't make you any less wrong.
Dadaism and avant-garde were specifically about rejecting systematized conventions which were common in western styles of music. In order to reject something, you need to know what you're rejecting. So no, it doesn't "have nothing to do with knowing music theory." Knowing music theory is at the core of the argument we're having.
Also, music theory isn't prescriptive. Nowhere in music theory is there a claim that "this is what 'good music' is, and this is what 'bad music' is." That's a fucking caricature detached from reality. It's closer to musical critique.
Music theory is descriptive, and the fact that you don't understand that makes it abundantly clear that you don't know anything about it. You're literally pulling a dunning-kruger.
Since you are so adamant of quoting like a madman, let me show you how it is done.
Glad to see you agree with me that your original comment was out of place. Let's leave it at that. Also, extremely prejudiced of you to assume what I know or don't know. Peak internet bad faith arguing.
But it is. You just said so yourself. That's the whole point of dadaism and avant garde, as you so eloquently exposed.
It is a matter of taste, you don't like it, fine. Shut up and let's move on. It has nothing to do with following or not following musical science, whatever it is that you personally conceive as such. As you pointed out, musical theory is just describing what musicians, artists, are doing. Just because you don't like it doesn't demerit its value. Bunch of great painters have come up with marvelous, brown only, paintings. that are not inferior just because you feel like they don't know anything about color theory. I suspect there's someone else in this thread with worrying notions about what has value and what doesn't, and it ain't me.
I don't agree with you, and it wasn't out of place. You're still distorting my arguments because you can't admit that you were wrong.
I'm not assuming anything. You made your ignorance clear with your statements.
No. Unless you're still trying to conflate music theory (including rhythm and harmony) with western musical notation. Which I've told you repeatedly are not the same thing.
Rhythm and harmony exist in musical systems outside of the west. And the fact that you can't seem to get that through your head is what's eurocentric.
I told you the philosophical underpinnings of avante-garde and dadaism. I also mentioned why it's erroneous to equate "harmonious" with "western". What part of that are you not getting?
My personal opinion, which I explicitly tagged as "personally I think"? Yeah, you're right, that is a matter of taste. I can express my tastes. And that can still be completely separate from the argument that "music theory is fundamentally mathematical and descriptive at its core, making it a science."
Two different statements, and only one of them has any bearing on my personal taste. And I made that separation pretty clear.
I never said that. That sounds more like musical critique.
I said music theory is descriptive, but it doesn't describe individual musicians. It describes the basic components and building blocks of music (i.e., tonality, harmony, rhythm, tempo, meter, etc.). Inasmuch as those fundamental building blocks are inherently mathematical (which if you don't understand, it's your ignorance), music theory is a science.
Just because you keep trying to conflate the science of music theory with the art of musical expression, does not mean the science underpinning the art doesn't exist. It just means you don't understand it.
It's not about what I like and don't like. What the fuck, we're arguing in circles. Are you a troll?
Just because a painter can make a good painting that's entirely brown, doesn't disprove the fact that there's a science behind what colors mix to create what colors. You can't mix red and green to get orange just because you feel like it. If you want brown, you mix colors that make brown. If you want orange, you mix colors that make orange. And now matter how badly you torture my arguments to make them sound ludicrous, that only proves that the point is going way over your head.
I never said "an all-brown painting is inferior." That's more assumptions that you're projecting onto me. I said if you want to mix colors to get the colors that you want, you need to understand the color wheel. Because there's a science behind it.
I never made any statements whatsoever on what art has "value" and what doesn't. You keep loading up all these terms with meanings that I never implied. You're full of straw men and red herrings, and you're the one not arguing in good faith. You've never actually refuted a single point that I've made, only misrepresented them to try to score easy points.
What a dense brick of elitism. You speak so much that you stopped noticing when you contradict yourself. It is also rich when you accuse others of ignorance or misreading, when you don't even understand what your own words mean.
You're really putting the Dunning-Kruger effect on full display, so I won't take it personally when you try to call me ignorant.
Also, words like "elitism" lose all meaning when you throw them around just to flame anything you don't like, agree with, nor understand.
You still haven't once addressed a single point that I've actually made, only misrepresented things as straw man arguments. So clearly you dont have a more informed response. Goodbye.