this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2026
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[–] wrinkle2409@lemmy.cafe 6 points 1 day ago (3 children)

My native language isn't English in case you were assuming that. I mention it because my native language has gone through a reform for the reasons of simplification. English may be shit, but it was much much easier to learn than the hell I am going through with German. Even Japanese, which I touched for a few years wasn't nearly as bad. The point of languages it to be simple and efficient, and they should evolve to that goal eventually.

[–] hraegsvelmir@ani.social 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The point of languages it to be simple and efficient, and they should evolve to that goal eventually.

That's one hell of an assumption to bring to the table. There is no point to language, no end goal towards which they must, or even should evolve. They're a natural creation of humans to facilitate communication, but coming from human beings, they're naturally quite irregular and odd, at times.

I mean, I get it that German isn't a cakewalk to pick up, but you're also complaining about the unreasonable complexity in one of the less morphologically complex European languages. Take a gander at Polish, Icelandic, Basque, or Finnish, and German will probably seem quite charming and quaint with its handful of cases and corresponding forms of the articles.

[–] wrinkle2409@lemmy.cafe 0 points 1 day ago (2 children)

They're a natural creation of humans to facilitate communication

If a language is easy to learn and easy to use, more people will speak it. The languages that don't adapt die with the people who still insist on using it. There is an evolution and there is a goal, as you said, to communicate. A simpler language is bound to be chosen over one that adds obstacles to communication.

In the same way evolution is mostly driven by an animal's ability to pass off its genes, language is mostly driven by it's ability to be used and learned.

Now I'm thinking about Esperanto, maybe that is not completely true, idk

[–] hraegsvelmir@ani.social 1 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

here is an evolution and there is a goal, as you said, to communicate

I would argue that this is just humans attributing intent to a natural process that has none, and is the same sort of erroneous conception as when people say that history has some grand end goal it's working towards. I believe this is amply demonstrated in the lack of success found by Esperanto and similar conlangs that were deliberately constructed in order to be easy to learn for a wide range of people as a neutral lingua franca. If what you claim about the purpose and goal of language were true, these conlangs should have seen widespread adoption and be the most widely spoken languages today, rather than their current status as quirky ideas that are mostly of no interest to people who aren't complete nerds for studying languages.

[–] Griffus@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 day ago

But the point of a language is not to spread to the most people, it is for the peoples using it being able to use it in a way that makes it possible to communicate with their own in a way that makes sense within the local population, its culture and history.

Different languages have a different learning curve based on what language you grew up with. What is hard for you might be a cakewalk for someone coming from a different language, especially if you are coming from a different family of languages.

[–] Airfried@piefed.social 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

My native language isn’t English in case you were assuming that.

I wasn't assuming that, don't worry. That's why I phrased my message like that.

I guess I agree to disagree here. Language is an expression of culture and heritage too. I would never speak German differently now just because of a reform. Neither would 99% of German speakers I assume. Yet we freely integrate English words into our language because it feels natural. These English words often come and go anyway so I'm not actually concerned the German language will become deluded from Internet lingo or anything.

[–] farmgineer@nord.pub 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Even Japanese, which I touched for a few years wasn’t nearly as bad.

I think this is a 'to each his own' sort of situation. I like the idea of kanji but am terrible at memorizing them. I'll take German grammar over kanji any day. If you specifically mean grammar, Japanese does have its own challenges as well.

The point of languages it to be simple and efficient

According to whom? The point of language is to communicate information. There are high-context and low-context ways to do this. There are direct and indirect ways to do this, all of which encode certain cultural meaning. If you studied Japanese, think about all the indirectness, honorifics, etc. that aren't there to be simple, they're there for cultural and societal reasons, even if mostly just historical in some cases.