this post was submitted on 09 Aug 2026
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[–] Return_of_Chippy@lemmy.world -4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (4 children)

What do you mean? Are the Chinese billionaires a good thing?

[–] Strawberry@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 1 day ago

China did not press a magical "make billionaires from clay" button. It enacted market reforms, after the failure in leaping directly from a largely feudal economy to a collectivist one, to progress the development of its economy within the global capitalist market system. Billionaires are an unfortunate symptom of the condradictions inherent to this system. Unlike most countries, however, the chinese government recognizes these billionaires as the threat to the public that they are, and tends to be much more cautious about them as a result, resisting their influence in state affairs.

[–] AlfalFaFail@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Instead of using the term good, I think the standard here is asking, "Do the billionaires have more power than the some other group? In this cases CPC." And if the CPC has more power, "What role does the CPC imagine using the billionaires to development of society and the party goals?"

[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world -1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

"The ends justify the means."

Surely that's never caused any problems....

[–] AlfalFaFail@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It depends if you think capital circulation is a necessary step along the way to a more just world. For Marxists, they see it as just another step in the process to socialism. There are reasons, and I'm happy to describe the theory if you'd like, but that's what they believe. They see it as a process they can control verse a process in which they become exploited.

[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I'm not really asking about capital circulation. I'm interested specifically in the billionaires. So why the billionaires?

I can understand the logic of having a market-based economy. It's a very effective means of achieving compound economic growth. But a market economy does not require billionaires. There are numerous more equitable models that China could have built its system around. For example, they could have built their market economy based entirely around worker-owned co-ops. Co-ops can compete just fine in markets. Or, they could have gone with the current structure, but put in place a wealth cap. That's been proposed before even in the US.

Why couldn't China build a market economy, but just have a hard rule of "no one is allowed to amass more than X amount?" Even if people couldn't hoard more than say, $100 million, that still gives people plenty of incentive to start new businesses, get an education, work hard, etc.

[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

There are numerous more equitable models that China could have built its system around. For example, they could have built their market economy based entirely around worker-owned co-ops. Co-ops can compete just fine in markets

Well, you'll be quite pleased to know that a significant part of China's market reforms, has been the development of worker co-ops as a significant part of its economy.

Why couldn't China build a market economy, but just have a hard rule of "no one is allowed to amass more than X amount?" Even if people couldn't hoard more than say, $100 million, that still gives people plenty of incentive to start new businesses, get an education, work hard, etc.

Because they established markets to bring in foreign capital investment. Foreign companies, wanting comparatively cheap labor, were encouraged to partner with Chinese (usually state owned) firms, to access said cheap labor. Over the decades, the Chinese have taken this foriegny capital, invested it in its own domestic economic development, and encouraged the establishment of worker co-ops, in place of foreign firms. Huawei, for instance, is a worker co-op, and came out of the capital generated from partnerships foreign telecom companies.

Now, a private, national bourgeoise does exist, and people have gotten very rich. But China also puts those people on an INCREDIBLY tight leash. The reason they don't limit the wealth you can amass, is because they wouldn't want to limit the generation of capital that could be spent on economic development goals. Instead, they use the slightest steps out of line to seize those rich people's wealth for thepublic good.

I'm interested specifically in the billionaires. So why the billionaires?

Essentially, the TL;DR is that billionaires in China are a byproduct of market reforms designed to generate domestic capital, and development. While they're there, and their presence creates contradictions, they don't have the ability to impact politics the way they can in the west.

The Chinese state, being a socialist state, seeks to manage the contradictions of market reforms, and funnel the gains from them for socialist ends. Those ends being the development of the productive forces (domestic industry, ending poverty, etc.), while also developing the relations of production, via state ownership of major industries, and encouraging the growth of cooperatives in the consumer goods market, and workers Congresses and party committees in nominally private businesses, to give workers a greater say in firm management.

[–] AlfalFaFail@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I can't actually answer why they don't set a hard limit of how much they will let some one accumulate or as for why they didn't use coops. Both of these are counterfactuals that would be difficult even if I knew all the internal discussions. For example, you'd have to look closely at Deng's policies and the subsequent three represents during the early 2000s to see what the discussion around coops was. Hard to say what the thinking was that precluded coops from the discussion.

It's easier to say what they are doing and the policies they are enacting. I believe they have a goal of reducing inequality with a goal of a Gini index of .35 by 2035. They are focusing on a common prosperity goal. This has led to increased donations and contributions from the wealthy to social causes. With the common prosperity project, they hope to increase the middle class and reduce the rural-urban divide as well. I think there are several other goals.

I don't see setting a hard limit on whether or not one is a billionaire contributing to these goals and then runs the risk of creating resentment of a particular class that the party needs to grow their level of prosperity.

Edit: Prior to the 90s, there government supported state-owned and collective enterprises. But they weren't growing quick enough to meet the needs of the CPC.

Meanwhile, the growing number of entrepreneurs were gaining power, but no access to representation. So the CPC decided to bring them in to the party. This would reduce the likeliness of a counter revolution.

Theoretically, coops struggled with massive, capital-intensive investments. They can't scale or absorb risk because their capital is in the form of worker's equity.

When coops fail, it can be doubly devastating. Workers lose their jobs and equity when the firm goes bankrupt. Just as bad, though, there can be a prolonged declined as the coops would go under they would slash their pay to keep the dying firm alive.

Coops seem great when the economic engine is humming along, but if you are looking for rapid growth, you need large capital investments and the ability to fail quickly or massively succeed.

[–] Dearth@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think the billionaires are just a symptom of the capitalist global economy. China uses the wealth generated by the billionaires to further their goals of working towards communism.

[–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 day ago

Interesting, and I thought it was the workers who generated the wealth. Perhaps it should not belong to them after all then. Why tax the billionaires at all if they're the ones generating the wealth?

[–] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Are you an actual child? Serious answers only please

[–] Return_of_Chippy@lemmy.world -2 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I mean that if you have a valid excuse for being this painfully naive then I would like to know in advance before I hurt your feelings about it

[–] Return_of_Chippy@lemmy.world -4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

You're why I do this. I've never seen an easier group to ragebait than .ml users/lemmy communists. I don't care even a tiny bit about China or their billionaires. The fact you're viewing a shitpost through the lense of winning and loosing is the best thing I could have hoped for making this post. Look through every comment I've made here, are any even slightly high effort? Its all the easiest bullshit talking points to keep people unable to discern context riled up. I'm having a fantastic time.

[–] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Not even a little believable, you're either some sort of deeply incompetent fed or profoundly lonely, maybe both lol

[–] Return_of_Chippy@lemmy.world -4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (1 children)

If you love capitalism and are just being a silly goose say "your mother".

[–] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)