this post was submitted on 03 Sep 2026
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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

As if a democratically elected government representing people in a certain place should have no right to its own sovereignty

I mean, "democratically elected" does a lot of heavy lifting in countries that are choked out by fascist governance and fear-mongering media. "Sovereignty" also has a weird way of being used to weaponize self-determination into surveillance-state policing and xenophobic policy.

But then when it comes to countries that struggle to find work for their own people, they also get flooded by people from places where no government functions at all. Specifically Nigerians in South Africa and Ghana. Legally present, and subject to xenophobic attacks because there no hope for them in Nigeria because it’s a hot mess.

Why is it that a French citizen traveling to Germany or Spain is considered benign, but a Libyan citizen traveling to Germany or Spain is considered part of a "flood" that has some kind of existential threat to the locals? Why does Libya's dogshit government get raised as a reason why this Libyan visitor can't stay at my hotel or eat at my restaurant or work in my office?

Does being born in Country A stain someone's soul in a way that makes them incompatible with Country B?

how is it supposed to work without literally magic being involved?

You don't need magic to not have borders. If anything, you need a certain degree of magic to rigidly enforce borders. You need mass surveillance to track the identities of everyone entering and leaving your country. You need to engineer increasingly complex systems of identification, digital fingerprinting, financial controls, regulation on business and social activities, and prohibitions enforcement pursuant to a constantly shifting web of sanctions. You need an enormous body of labor to manage these rules and enforce them. You need prisons to hold all the trespassers. You sprawling bureaucracies to figure out who is "legal" and to change the legal status in a timely manner.

None of this shit works as intended. Legal residents routinely get harassed because records aren't properly maintained and distributed. Illegal residents slip through blind spots in the system. Black market trade grows faster than the regulated trade, because there's a larger profit margin in it. Legal business activity suffocates under the higher costs of compliance.

You ask how no-borders are supposed to work? I'd say, incredibly easily! Do nothing. Boom! You've achieved your goal.

I ask you how closed-borders are supposed to work? You're going to spend several lifetimes and untold fortunes trying to achieve this fantasy.

[–] hansolo@lemmy.today 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I mean, “democratically elected” does a lot of heavy lifting in countries that are choked out by fascist governance and fear-mongering media. “Sovereignty” also has a weird way of being used to weaponize self-determination into surveillance-state policing and xenophobic policy.

Sure, but since we're talking about hypothetical and fictional situations, I'm asking why a not real place that actually does democracy well and isn't dragging a legacy of being shitty behind it allowed to manage its own affairs and territory under this "no borders" idea.

And you're dodging the question I've asked, which is open borders in practice are a mess.

Why is it that a French citizen traveling to Germany or Spain is considered benign, but a Libyan citizen traveling to Germany or Spain is considered part of a “flood” that has some kind of existential threat to the locals? Why does Libya’s dogshit government get raised as a reason why this Libyan visitor can’t stay at my hotel or eat at my restaurant or work in my office?

Uhh.... you do know the EU exists, right? Germany, Spain and France all have treaties in place under the EU and EEC that say they have freedom of movement, labor, and ownership of property among each other's countries as EU citizens. People from Libya aren't EU citizens, so laws granting transitive rights between EU member countries don't include Libya or anyone from Libya as Libya isn't part of the EU. If Libya joined the EU, then they would.

Plus, have you not seen recent complaints from Italians and Portuguese that they're being overrun with other Europeans and Americans anyway? How many Brits learned the hard way what Brexit meant when they lost residency in Spain?

You also seem to forget that Europe used to have hard borders. French people used to need permission to go to Spain, and vice versa. Spanish farmers, some possibly still alive today, needed special letters to tend to fields in France back in the 1960s.

Does being born in Country A stain someone’s soul in a way that makes them incompatible with Country B?

Not at all, but why does someone being a human give them a right to go anywhere and do anything?

It also seems like no one has thought out the true dangers of economic imperialism with no borders or governments. Holy shit, you really trust social media and advertising to be left unchecked? A lot of peple would 100% move to the Wal-Mart corporate town and condos. That's also exactly how you get things like the insane Broligarchy Network State stuff. Highly developed pockets of society that rampantly exert force on neighbors to extract resources. You know, like people used to do to each other during the era of early history and pre-history.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I’m asking why a not real place that actually does democracy well and isn’t dragging a legacy of being shitty behind it

A number of Latin American countries have very loose and friendly immigration policies. Argentina and Paraguay are the most notable. Idk if you'd say they "do democracy well". That's a real subjective criteria.

why does someone being a human give them a right to go anywhere and do anything?

We've got a wealth of political philosophy and ethics debates that help answer that question, from John Stuart Mill to Lea Ypi who can answer that question better than I can.

But a better question might be, why wouldn't they?

Holy shit, you really trust social media and advertising to be left unchecked? A lot of peple would 100% move to the Wal-Mart corporate town and condos.

Why would I trust the owners of social media and advertising companies to be the gatekeepers?

People already move to the Walmart Corporate Towns, in large part because Walmart dictates what criticism it will tolerate and what opposition it will face.

People screaming about corporate fascism today wanted to put Walmart Board Member Hillary Clinton in charge of the whole country not ten years ago.

[–] hansolo@lemmy.today 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

First off, I want to thank you for engaging on this in a reasonable and respectful way. This is a touchy subject, and I'm honestly curious how people that talk about it think it should work. Doesn't mean I agree with the conclusions, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate and respect your time and energy here. Thank you.

A number of Latin American countries have very loose and friendly immigration policies. Argentina and Paraguay are the most notable

Right, but I'm not asking about their democratic structures. I'm saying with all the open, and open-ish borders, what actually happens? Do people from Peru and Ecuador typically go to Brazil for work? OK, well, so is that constant draining of talent good for Peru and Ecuador? Economic migration is usually a one-way street for decades at a time.

Another good example is Bulgaria and Croatia joining the EU. There's already a lot of migration from the Balkans into western Europe, and as soon as free movement was allowed, both places saw huge migrations of young people. Bulgaria is genuinely having a demographics crisis right now, and because it's only a bunch of old Boomers left, they're doing a bunch of typical Boomer things, like being extra conservative. Which isn't to say that people should be forced to stay put, but that in every instance of people having low barriers to movement, there's a losing side. And then the free, or even low-cost movement only makes it harder to fix the problems that made people leave in the first place.

And Lea Ypi is a great example, ironically, of someone who is brilliant having opportunity to move to study in Italy and sort of proving her own point wrong in a sense that she's not some Albanian drug dealer. Though I don't think that's relevant here, as the opportunity sought her out in a sense. Though, I would say that Albania is by far its own special case. Tons of Albanians have a personal ethnic pride and intentionally move back to Albania and Kosovo specifically to make the place better. It seems fairly family-oriented, as even their Eurovision songs very often feature "don't disappoint mom" lyrics.

And I wasn't saying that companies would be gatekeepers, I mean abusers. Unfettered abusers.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Right, but I’m not asking about their democratic structures. I’m saying with all the open, and open-ish borders, what actually happens? Do people from Peru and Ecuador typically go to Brazil for work? OK, well, so is that constant draining of talent good for Peru and Ecuador? Economic migration is usually a one-way street for decades at a time.

Really depends on economic conditions in the various territories. If you look at the US-Mexico border between the 20th and 21st centuries, a lot of the migration was entirely seasonal at first. Mexican laborers would move north during the planting and harvesting seasons, then go back down south during the winter. Only after restrictions on cross border travel tightened did we see people permanently relocating. And that was largely because every attempt to cross the border carried an increased cost and a host of new bureaucratic difficulties.

I don't know a ton about the Argentinian economy relative to its neighboring states, so I can't speak to the long term economic impact of loose immigration policy. But it has historically been one of the stronger South American state economies - second only to Brazil - with a GDP/capita third in line behind Chile and Uruguay. Hard to say they're suffering because of dramatic inflows or outflows of people, at least relative to their neighbors. But obviously there's a lot more at play than just immigration.

Peru and Ecuador aren't nearly as rich as Argentina, so - if anything - people are migrating into Argentina rather than out.

Another good example is Bulgaria and Croatia joining the EU. There’s already a lot of migration from the Balkans into western Europe, and as soon as free movement was allowed, both places saw huge migrations of young people. Bulgaria is genuinely having a demographics crisis right now, and because it’s only a bunch of old Boomers left, they’re doing a bunch of typical Boomer things, like being extra conservative.

What you're describing is mass displacement due to a stark shift in economic policy brought on by the post-Soviet Shock Doctrine. FFS, Bulgaria went from the 16th strongest economy in the world to the mid-50s practically overnight.

I don't consider this exodus of young people a bad thing. It was a pressure release valve. A large number of young people kettled into a country with a collapsing economy could have just as easily ended up like Serbia and Bosnia, with an endless series of retaliatory genocides as rival ethnic groups play tug-of-war over scarce resources. Or like Turkiye, which has become a bottleneck in between Europe and the Middle East, where refugees simply pile up in camps and die by the hundreds. Or any of the North African countries, like Libya or Tunisia or Syria, where people in tiny boats attempt to (illegally) paddle their way across the Mediterranean and drown.

The prospect of a Bulgarian family legally and safely picking up, moving to Greece or Romania, finding a stable job, and reestablishing their fortunes doesn't seem frightening by comparison. Not even if it means the country's interior is hollowed out for a time. Bulgarians may return, as the state of affairs in Bulgaria adjusts and the political climate moderates. Or they may not, as they re-identify with their new home countries.

I might argue that the Shock Doctrine of the 90s/00s was horrible policy. And stripping the wiring out of the old Soviet Republics to prove, once and for all, that communism doesn't work was a bad long-term economic plan for Europe. But I consider the freedom of movement afforded by the EU to be the least-bad thing that came out of their induction into the bloc.

And Lea Ypi is a great example, ironically, of someone who is brilliant having opportunity to move to study in Italy and sort of proving her own point wrong in a sense that she’s not some Albanian drug dealer.

I don't recall anything in Ypi's works suggesting that people who move out of Albania are all drug dealers. She strongly critiques the Cold War Soviet Policy of strict immigration controls, state censorship, and over-policing. And she uses the recollections of herself, her family, and her neighbors to argue the virtues of a free and open society, unconstrained by rigid ideological constraints or militarized borders.

That's full consistent with her own life story. I'm not sure how you could argue otherwise.

And I wasn’t saying that companies would be gatekeepers, I mean abusers. Unfettered abusers.

Power corrupts. As soon as you establish gates, you need gatekeepers. And who else is going to man these gates if not the agents of the socio-economic elites?

In the US, that's the Waltons (among others). They have a significant financial interest in constraining immigration - both internationally and domestically - in order to put downward wage pressure on workers and control capital flows.

The Waltons abuse border controls and the criminal justice system that surrounds it more than any coyote or drug smuggler.

[–] hansolo@lemmy.today 1 points 7 hours ago

I think there is a disconnect here between us in terms of academic, data-only understanding and real lived experience. To suggest that Bulgarians are moving to Romania is wild. Most southern Slavs head for Germany and Switzerland, specifically because their economies are stronger, and there's a critical mass of slavs there already, so there's community. The Balkans have so much baggage that Bulgarians in Greece staying longer than summer holidays is laughable.

Which is to say that simply throwing "post-Soviet Syndrome" out there as a catch-all misses a lot of depth. Albania, Bulgaria, and Yugoslavia all had differing styles of socialism. Albania's was North Korea-style paranoid. They had a jobs program to build hundreds of thousands of cement bunkers because of a persistent fear that Yugoslavia would invade. It was breathtaking paranoia. I know a guy that was a kid near the Yugo border and tuned in his radio to a Yugo station - his parents genuinely thought they'd get sent to the gulag farms. Bulgaria was in the middle, and Tito liberalized Yugoslavia's economy to the point that it pissed off the USSR enough that he had to dodge an assassination attempt. Which meant that Yugoslavia's economy was thriving, and with another Slavic-speaking country next door, a lot of Yugoslavs would go to Bulgaria to exploit the disparity. The whistful ways old Yugoslavs talk about it sort of funny, and explains why Bulgaria is the way it is today. So Bulgaria had a relatively easy transition out of Socialism because they remained intact. Serbia, Slovenia, and Croatia all did well. Then Kosovo and Bosnia were trashed, and Macedonia just sort of the poor kid on the block, is too small to really do much other than get jostled around between its neighbors. Right now, Croatia is doing relatively well, and joining the EU took a decade of transition, but now they're a net recipient of immigrants. The non-EU Slavic Balkan countries empty out to staff Croatian restaurants each summer. Seriously, people take 3 months of leave without pay from office jobs to go wait tables in Croatia and make better money, then come home.

Albania had a terrible time transitioning out of socialism because of how closed off they were. A pyramid scheme collapsed the government because, and this is what every Albanian has ever told me about it, no one knew any better. The forced ignorance of capitalism made it seem like magic. Everyone genuinely thought pyramid schemes were how things worked. It's a fascinating history.

Speaking of Albania, I mean more that Lea Ypi's stance is that there's no "bad" or "good" migrants, or useful vs. useless. Which I appreciate from a human rights standpoint, but as a "good" immigrant that has empathy for fellow Albanians who are a slim minority of migrants, but are "bad" people in general, it muddies the waters in terms of practical application of her philosophy. I'm generally not super critical of Albania's corruption and organized crime within Albania simply because in the post-soviet era, it was closer to a Yakuza-style mafia that actually brought a fair bit of stability when the government itself was just some dudes trying to figure things out and hoping for the best. Less so for Serbia, but at some point it raises the question of legitimacy of governments is one thing, but then Albanian and wider Balkan organized crime isn't kind and nice and concerned about human rights. There's a lot of human trafficking and casinos and generally negative things wrapped up in there where it's a struggle for an African-style Western style government vs. an almost traditional government structure.

Why? As you rightly said, power corrupts. And the organized crime element that used to bring stability held a lot of power they don't want to give up. And the organized crime element also makes huge use of immigration as well.

Speaking of which, I think the larger issue today is that information sharing makes it easy for places to actually get flooded because of the speed with which rumors fly. There's a lot of trafficking on social media that rides on this exact effect. It's exactly the same thing about why some doughnut shop or whatever suddenly has a line down the block for mediocre doughnuts. There's more people, and more communication infrastructure, so migration patterns don't shift in long-term patterns, it's a quick turn over months.

Case in point, the low-information environments of The Grapes of Wrath and the movie El Norte. Both are tragic migration tales about the horrors of exploitation awaiting migrants at the end of a torrent of humans. Trafficking and undocumented migration patterns take advantage of this and exploit exactly the same way they always have, regardless of how complicit the state might be on the other side. Instead, today, it's organized. I once had a taxi driver in Istanbul tell me, in detail, about how his friend wanted to go to the States, so he flew to Mexico and paid a coyote, and now he's living somewhere in the midwest that he couldn't recall exactly, and he's miserable. Which is the same story I've heard from tons of African migrants, trying to explain to their families why they're not rich and can't send money home because everything is expensive and work is hard and pays nothing.

And to be clear, I'm not anti-immigration. And borders aren't a 100% detterent, they never have been. It's a barrier to entry that makes it take effort to get somewhere, be that an ocean or a mountain range or a desert or a river or a wall. Shit, how many people jumped the Berlin Wall to escape the East? Thousands - maybe tens of thousands? I'm not sure, but given the option of just crossing the border without a challenge, 90% of East Berlin would have emptied out into the West, and then what?

The part that I don't think you're really considering is that a borderless, and stateless world would feed capitalism and build it into a beast that only sci-fi novels have even bothered to imagine. Private security forces, private industry, private cities, all surrounded by townships and ghettos and slums of people dying to be exploited. Lagos is pretty much like that, and it's very much not pleasant. Children who are starving selling food they can't afford to eat themselves on packed highways. Until you see something like this in real life, I'm sure it's possible to think that it will work itself out, and that governments and laws and economics and money are objective evils. My friend, people do this to each other freely, regardless of the system in place.

Removing barriers that slow down the intensity of exploitation in some places sounds like the worst possible idea in the world to me. That's what I don't get about the no borders, no state crowd. You're desperate for a world that allows full capitalistic exploitation of anyone and everyone, and you're all just so sure of yourselves that it'll work and have to ignore so many examples of it being a genuine source of human misery. Then get pissed when people bring up that people are the problem, not borders as a concept.

But hey, I doubt I'll convince you of anything here. Again, I kind of doubt you've even read any of this and just sort of skim the first few words of each paragraph. Write the word quebapi if you've actually taken the time to read any of this. Or don't, maybe you're just an instance of an ageny on a botfarm in Malaysia and you'll go back and forth on this forever.