this post was submitted on 02 Feb 2026
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Yeah but without anonymous payments (xmr) there's no good way to easily pay for diy estrogen or hosting for piracy services, or to anonymously pay my mullvad account.
Granted if society wherent setup as a giant fucking fascist capitalistic panopticon we wouldn't really need any of that.
Any who, I mostly agree with the sentiment though. "Career" investors and venture capitalists belong against a fucking wall IMO.
How do you anonymously pay for things when the ledger is public?
The ledger being public doesn't necessarily mean anyone knows who "13LPtD4GG1XX7fgrze6xMR5V284rRQg9jv" is. But yeah, you can of course track the movement of funds, and make educated guesses on which addresses belong to who.
Which is pseudonymous, and not anonymous. Unless we are talking about monero of course.
Okay, that's probably a fair distinction. Don't know enough about anonymous vs pseudonymous to disagree.
edit: In this context, "pseudonymous" is a portmanteau (or malamanteau, depending on your opinions) of "pseudo" or "seeming like" and "anonymous", meaning "seems like anonymity (but isn't)". Bitcoin and most other cryptocurrency networks claim to be anonymous, but the pseudonym they provide you does not change, and so can be used to identify network participants over time.
In a pseudonymous system, it might be hard to confirm identity, but it's possible (edit: because your pseudonym doesn't change, it can be used to identify you). In an anonymous system, it's impossible to confirm identity.
edited for clarity, 'cause darohan@lemmy.zip is right - pseudonymous does have another definition that predates this one.
Had to go check this because I thought I was having a TIL but, while your point is basically correct, the word isn't a portmanteau but rather means "baring or using a fake name (pseudonym)"
Additionally, you can use a coin tumbler (I think that’s the term) where a bunch of strangers pool their coins for various transactions into one wallet that then distributes the coins to their end destinations, adding a layer of obscurity for which starting wallets are associated with which ending wallets.
xmr is a cryptocurrency which aims to make reading transactions from the chain impossible. Iirc the main mechanism of this is that they bundle a lot of transactions together and send out coins from that pool only once it is large enough, without preserving each specific coin. This repeats for a few proxies. You could trace a coin from origin to endpoint, but this would be pretty much useless as you cannot know whether the endpoint was the intended one or not.
Interesting! So at best you could narrow down the purchaser to one of many possible sources.
My first thought is that a large enough organization trying to demask you could do so by looking at repeat subscription purchases over time coming from the same wallet. You know, like a monthly fee for a VPN. The first month you're one of a thousand people. The second month. Maybe you're one of 500. Eventually they get you.
But I know nothing about XMR, they probably solved for this. I just can't be bothered to read :-D
I believe the way they deal with this is by having the recipient create a one-time address for every sender, so it is not possible to recognize patterns between senders and recipients. Another thing is that every wallet has two associated keys. There is a "spend key", which is a write-only key that can spend money from the wallet, and a "view key", which can be used to view the contents of the wallet. You can publish the view key if you want that to be public information, but you don't have to.
How does the mechanism know who to send the coins to? How can I be sure the coins I put in go to where I intended them to go? And can the sender prove to the receiver it was their transaction?
As I understand it, this happens cryptographically. Send keys can be added to form a larger key, which gets used to sign the pool of transactions. Because the signature used your key as well, the recipient can verify that they have received your coins(from a pool you signed). The important part is that it is impossible to tell who signed what part of the pool, just that one of the people in the pool did. Because all money is pooled together and sent at the same time, it is not possible to read from the amounts sent which transaction belongs to who.
I think I get it (in theory). As much as people shit on crypto, it really is a cool implementation of math and economics.
XMR uses some really cool cryptography actually. Zero-knowledge proofs and shit.
That's literally what caused bitcoin mixer services to exist where you throw some amount of BTC in an account with them, tell them how much you want paid to whom, and then it takes all the transactions for a certain (usually random) time period and plays a shell game with them, passing funds from account to account in various amounts and resulting ultimately in the right amount going from you to the target via multiple intermediaries. Slow because it involves a lot of transactions, but the idea was to make it hard to trace exactly who was paying who, beyond being able to know that one or more of the user accounts were paying some amount to one or more of the destination accounts.
Over the last 5 years or so, law enforcement has been shutting down several such organizations for money laundering, being illegal money transmitting businesses or things along those lines as appropriate to the jurisdiction.
Even without them, with good opsec it can be hard to tie a BTC wallet address to a human person, which is the point of anonymous payment.
Not all crypto is the same. ZCASH uses an encrypted ledger. Monero combines transactions and redistributes to obfuscate.
With monero the ledger is encrypted and has a bunch of obfuscated/fake data in it
If you bought crypto, same way money laundering works. Otherwise you can earn crypto while remaining anonymous (but in the case of a VPN, connecting to it from your home IP after anonymously buying it kind of defeats the purpose [partially])
If you are buying online it will track back to you through the payment method. If you buy in a physical location, you give an important clue to where you live. If a state actor wants to deanonymize you, it's only a matter of how many resources they are willing to spend on it.
Then there ain't fucking shit you can do about it. The only thing you can do to keep big brother off your back is to be too small of a fish for them to spend their time on.
You can buy from a physical location if the seller is not a regulated seller (just a random person), chances are they bought the bitcoin from someone else where the coin literally could come from any place in the world. The magic of bitcoin is it is digital so the "coins" can "teleport" around.
Say you buy $50 worth, which isn't anonymous. Then you add to a pool of several thousand or more, which is then sent out to several clean anonymous wallets as smaller fractions of the whole minus some fee. It's not rocket surgery but works effectively well so long as you have good opsec and the pool is trustworthy.
The wallet you sent $50 from is known, but which of the hundreds of wallets that got $10 from the pool belong to you vs others in the pool? They can deduce it from patterns and usage, but it makes it a lot harder. And this is just "newbie's first introduction to anonimized finances"
But unlike cash, the chain exists forever. They can do wild sorts of analysis, which means you need good opsec with clean separation, and lots of obfuscation. But this is nothing new to people in that world.
So yes, it can be anonymous, but it's tricky and may not always be because it has a permanent public record.
.... But if you go thru all that trouble and then just connect to your new shiny dark VPN from your home PC... Uhh.... It's like ordering pizza delivery. Maybe not the best usecase for 'untraceable currency'
That's a good point. If you earned the crypto anonymously, you could probably spend it the same way. Because they would tie it to a wallet but not a bank account or a person.
Okay, politely, fuck off. Its 2026 and I absolutely refuse to believe anyone educated on crypto enough to know what a blockchain is and how it works, even if just a basic understanding, doesn't know about encrypted blockchains or XMR.
You get to post this comment like once in your life, and after that we both know its in bad faith. I really doubt its the first time.
I'd say I'm educated in blockchain as of ~5 years ago, and haven't paid much attention lately. Didn't know this about Monero or ZCASH and I appreciated @Fmstrat@lemmy.world 's explanation.
There's actually a surprising new discovery coming out of East Asia this year. After years of research, they've discovered that you can educate someone online without being a total dick.
I too thought it was impossible. But I can't argue with science.
Normally I'd agree but this gets posted anytime anyone says something about anonymous crypto payments like some magic gatchya, and Its getting really hard to believe its not in bad faith at this point.
Insert 10000 xkcd. If you see it so often, just have a text ready to copy+paste anytime anyone says something about it
You do know that you can pay for mullvad in cash?
You can send cash in an envelope to them with your mullvad ID and they will credit your account.
Let's be realistic, that isn't an equivalent alternative
Sending mail is pseudo-anonymous at best. It's exceptionally slow. Most importantly, it's insecure to the point where most postal services explicitly recommend against mailing cash
How is it not anonymous?
Because there is a lot of evidence tied to mailing a letter
DNA
Fingerprints
Time and location the letter was mailed from
Camera footage of you mailing the letter
The letter itself can generally be traced back to where it was manufactured
Address handwriting/stamp/sticker
Even if you scrub anything personally identifying yourself, it still leaves a fairly unique fingerprint. A sufficiently motivated investigator would be able to identify another similar payment without inspecting the actual contents of the letter. Hence pseudo-anonymous
Can I go to their HQ, slip them a tenner with my ID on a piece of paper under the door?
Yes
fyi monero hasn't had the best trackrecord on the cryptography front[1]
I am not certain if they have improved or not but I believe zcash tends to do a lot better on that front
Zcash has opt in anonymization. So it really doesn't work because any offramp can just not accept any zcash that has been obfuscated. With monero, its all obfuscated by default.
If a diy hrt seller doesn't accept obfuscated cash they are 100% a fed, but point taken
Admittedly I'm not a hardcore crytography nerd, but I know they've been improving things for years, and that message on that mailing list looked like it was 10 years old.
Not saying your wrong, but Id take it with a grain of salt. Anytime I see a newer encrypted block chain I see it and think whatever improvements have been done here, will eventually bleed into monero because of that. And that unlike the other encrypted blockchain, people will still actively be using xmr for real transactions.
You might be right, I have not followed xmr closely. You might also notice that this vulnerability is unlikely to deanonimise you, but the point was more that it is a mistake they shouldn't have made. Their last audit looks fine, though it was made by a blockchain auditing company which I don't know. I don't think there is much harm in using xmr for this, groups who would be capable of exploiting vulnerabilities in this kind of project are unlikely to do so, unless an issue of national security becomes associated somehow
I'm not sure I'd trust whatever that link is as a source that XMR isn't secure... I mean, what even is that link?
I don't know what a mullvad is, but now I want one. I HAVE CASH
Good news! Put that cash in an envelope and post it to them and they’ll give you VPN time: https://mullvad.net/en/pricing
It's a privacy-first VPN.
also no delivery drugs. people would have to go out to get their drugs