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Here's a (very old) joke I like to tell on tech forums sometimes; it nicely encapsulates how they communicate. Most people get it, but there's always a few who don't think it's funny:
A programer's wife asks him to do some shopping: "Please buy a loaf of bread, and if they have eggs, buy a dozen."
He comes back with 12 loaves of bread.
The wife asks: "Why on earth would you get 12 loaves of bread?"
"They had eggs."
All of the worst programmers I have worked with do that exact thing and refuse to acknowledge that they might have misunderstood what was said.
The good ones ask for clarification when something sounds weird.
As a programmer working support. I often ask users for clarification on how they expect things to work, and they often make me imagine a dog going "no take only throw" by saying 'i don't know just fix it.'
Yeah, those people are annoying too.
Early on in my career I've wasted time on projects implementing the wrong thing a few times so ever since I clarify to a fault even if it doesn't sound weird. If something can be interpreted multiple ways I always ask for clarification even if one interpretation is "more popular". I'd rather spend 5 minutes asking for clarification than waste a week of everyone's time.
Since then I don't think I've ever implemented something "wrong". There might be miscommunications in other parts of the communication chain but never with me.
Ugh.
Listen here, you little shits. I hired you because I don't need robots. I can build robots, for crying out loud.
Thing with this joke that his me wrong is that isn't how if statements are written. The else does not come before the condition in any language I've ever used or seen.
At the very least. It should be that he comes back with 1 or 13 loaves.
Buy a loaf
If they have eggs
Buy a dozen loaves
Thanks for proving my point 😉
loaves = 1
if (eggs)
loaves = 12
I see that as requiring an instruction of replacement, like buy a dozen instead.
I used to fully fully 100% agree with this. I'm not a computer science guy but I am a web developer and have been for a decade.
I've finally run into a new, third problem: managers who get angry as soon as they're confused, but refuse to learn basics. My project manager is a fucking nightmare to deal with. The moment, and I mean the first sign that she's not 100% totally understanding what's being discussed, she shuts down, gets dismissive and short, and refuses to hear anything further.
Tech has a problem communicating out, but I've never had this before. I try to take it slow but not too slow (she's an adult and not stupid), I've tried illustrating just to help her visualise, I've tried screensharing, I've tried metaphor, I've tried leaving unimportant details out, I've tried leaving important details out, I've tried giving very brief summaries instead of talking things through in any detail, I've tried saying "ok, no problem, which bit isn't making sense here?", I've tried saying "don't shoot the messenger", I've tried so many different approaches and it's just...
One of our clients has a server that they upload CSVs to. We built a plugin for their site that automatically fetches those CSVs, pulls the data from them into a DB, and populates stuff on the website. Going forwards, internal restructuring at our client company means that they'll be using the server for normal file transfers between them and our design team.
Their IT team do consider security important, so they've locked down FTP access to their server by IP. Our web server is whitelisted, our office IP and home IPs are not.
I emailed their head of IT the other day to ask about whitelisting our office IP, and asked the head of our design team if he wanted me to ask for their home IPs to be whitelisted.
Manager overhears and asks why we don't already have access. I explain that they haven't whitelisted our IPs because we've never had to FTP to their server like this before. She says that we have, because of our plugin. This is true, so I agree and explain that our server has been whitelisted, but not our office/home IPs. She asks how we connect to their server now, already a little bit angry. I explain that our server FTPs to the client server, and can do that because it's been whitelisted, whereas we don't connect from our laptops.
She's now actually angry. She says "literally everywhere else I've ever worked, you just FTP from your computer to the server." so I say we haven't had to do that before with this client. I say "it's not a problem, I'll just get him to whitelist our IPs and all good!"
She turns her back to go back to her desk, saying she doesn't understand why I have to make things so complicated and that I should be making things simple.
I would say there's between five and fifteen of these interactions every single week. I'm not the most socially skilled man, I know that. I've never had this issue before, though. Like, ever. I've worked hard in previous companies to get our web development teams to talk to and understand the marketing team, and vice versa. I've organised team lunches, or nights out after work (I know it sounds like hell but I promise they weren't). In one company, I even asked my boss if I could move my desk into the marketing office for a couple of weeks in an effort to bridge the gap (it was really bad at that place). I've asked project managers to embed into the web development team before to help build that social gelling that helps with work. It's been fine, genuinely.
I'm not skilled socially. I'm annoying, I get that. But this is mad.
Anyway sorry I just wanted to vent. I don't have anyone to whine and moan about this stuff to, really. Merry Christmas all who are reading! 🎄
Hey man, fellow IT here. I think it's very fair that you're frustrated, that would tick me off to deal with. Unfortunately it sounds like this manager doesn't like to hear anything but "yes", "right away" and "everything worked perfectly". This is what I'd call a shitty project manager.
While there isn't a perfect solution, I find that abstracting delivery of the problems has helped with this kind of person in the past. That is to say that if they're going to get mad no matter how you convey it, don't convey it in person or directly if you can. Post in team channels, leave a memo, anything but target the PM in one on one. The social pressure to act like they understand sometimes stops the early onset dementia from being your problem to deal with. If you can't solve the problem after a good faith effort, embrace avoidance.
I hope this helps, even a little. Merry Christmas 🎄
I’ve finally run into a new, third problem: managers who get angry as soon as they’re confused, but refuse to learn basics. My project manager is a fucking nightmare to deal with. The moment, and I mean the first sign that she’s not 100% totally understanding what’s being discussed, she shuts down, gets dismissive and short, and refuses to hear anything further.
I don't work in IT and the rest of the story doesn't carry over, but I just left a boss behind who behaved exactly like that. Some sort of insecurity, probably about being in a leadership position in the first place.
I think it's dumb; if you've been thrown into the hierarchy sideways and want to become a good leader you need to listen to people even if it means eating some humble pie.
I’m not skilled socially. I’m annoying, I get that. But this is mad.
Yep, that's me, too.
I know nothing about IT and most of your comment went over my head, but this -
The moment, and I mean the first sign that she’s not 100% totally understanding what’s being discussed, she shuts down, gets dismissive and short, and refuses to hear anything further.
is a situation that I'm intimately familiar with. That's my mom. Me, I'm the autistic daughter that had to learn and develop her social skills on her own, in her adulthood years.
I have bad news. Despite nearly 37 years of knowing this type of person, I have not found any way that can consistently bypass their issues. Their reactions are built on how they feel, emotionally. Once that emotion is tied to an idea, they are stuck there until their feelings change.
For the dynamic between me and my mom, she's stuck in some old school thoughts (though she would deny it if told so.) Me, I'm a progressive weirdo living alternative lifestyles, and it started young. The idea of her kids making decisions she doesn't like makes her upset, but she doesn't acknowledge that. Instead, when she hears an idea she doesn't like (even if it's something we're excited about, like going to college), she goes silent and refuses to respond beyond little snippets of, "Stop it." Needless to say, such a response makes us feel terrible. That's why we've long since stopped sharing information with her. One of my brothers even got married without immediately telling her. Yeah, and she wonders why we don't call more often.
The good news is, there can be conditions to have things be understood. The bad news is, your relationship with her is a factor in having it go well. You'd also need time - my mom only softens up to ideas after a period of time had passed since she first learned of it. Sometimes it was weeks, sometimes it was months, but it seems she always needs a processing period to come around to things.
An important thing to note about such emotional thinkers is that the person giving them the information holds a lot of sway in how they receive that information. I've got a leg-up by being my mom's daughter, as that emotional attachment carries weight. For a boss, there's a lot more work to do... and I do not envy your situation.
Some people would recommend attempting to befriend the boss. But if you're like me, you know that's not going to happen. Even if you possessed the social skills to go that route, I imagine you'd find yourself exhausted by the effort in no time. I sure would. One of the reasons I dropped the idea of professional piloting was because I realized that in order to get a good job, you need to network with lots of (often rich or arrogant) people. I just plain don't have it in me to keep up such a charade.
Regardless, I've encountered the same behavior in bosses before as well. Unfortunately, I have not found any way to properly deal with them... short of going to their higher-ups or HR. Sometimes the higher-ups are as bad as the boss. Sometimes HR doesn't care. Sometimes somebody does care, but the bad boss targets you for having reported them. I've seen it all, I've worked under their thumbs, I've seen how rusty the gears are all the way up the machine.
Of note, I have learned that the phrase "hostile work environment" is more likely to get HR to stand up and act. This is a situation worth documenting. You might want to start taking note of the conversations, the specific words she uses, along with times and dates of when they occurred. Showing a pattern is important. It's also worth writing down the ways in which her behavior impacts your job performance.
As to dealing with immediate issues that need to be communicated to your boss, you might want to check your colleagues and see if any of them have better luck when talking to her. Although direct communication is usually the best option, it's possible your boss already has unclear negative feelings about you, and that's making it more difficult for her to listen to your words. (Sorry, bud.) Maybe having someone be the liaison between you would help her listen to the issues you're dealing with. I've had to do that before, and though it sucked to need another person to do the talking, at least some problems got taken care of.
Anyway, best of luck to you and your colleagues. I don't personally expect such a person to change, so I hope you find a way to wriggle out from under her irrational control.
Edit: Oh, and Merry Christmas to you, too!
I mean, the example that you gave has me thinking that the manager is just bad. Some problems are just complex. You could not have left out the complexity here, because it is the problem. If it was as simple as they wanted it to be, then there would be no problem. But you can't make the problem magically disappear.
A good manager would ask what the problem is. Then they would ask why that is more complex than they know it. Then they would listen to your response and not understand a single word, but still recognize that, hey, evidentally there is a reason. Their expert said so, they don't have to understand the nitty-gritty.
The only reasons they might have to understand the nitty-gritty:
I have the same manager. Its turned a nice comfy job into a job which I dread. I dont understand how these kinds of people get to these positions.
Used to work with structural engineers. Ohhhh buddy the senior people were wild for that kinda crap.
We never teach these skills and then we threaten people with job loss for imperfection so most people are unequipped for the job and terrified of the consequences. Combine that with refusal to pay people in “lower” positions more than managers means that good people are promoted out of their area of expertise and into management which is just such a huge problem.
Society is fucking dumb.
A lot of techies have little communication skills, but even non techies can have bad and dysfunctional communication skills.
Good luck with it.
I have the same manager, he's unfortunately my advisor 🤣🤣🤣
Software Engineer checking in.
I'm fairly certain my senior position is paid as well as it is to compensate for the insane level of human bullshit I have to endure, rather than my ability to skills at programming.
Yeah, I still remember when I "became an adult" in terms of software engineering.
Our customer was fucking pissed, because a problem had taken multiple months to solve and there was no transparency why. Our senior was late for the meeting, so I had to explain what the problem was. I started out genuinely nervous and unsure how much I should dumb it down.
Then our customer tells me "No simplifications. I want to understand the problem in full.".
The nervosity was gone in an instant, because that was my home turf. Because I ultimately had the programming skills to explain the technological side with zero insecurity.
Evidentally, I wasn't yet as confident in customer communication in general, but yeah, that was certainly a huge milestone in my ability to deal with human bullshit.
I took a class in my undergrad program titled Human Engineering and Ergonomics. It was an elective in comp sci but I really think it should have been a requirement. Going through how humans communicate and perceive interfaces/communication. Every developer should have to take it.
This trickles down into UX design aswell, so many programmers just do not understand it, which makes opensource software sometimes so annoying to use
Similiar, I studied "media computer science" - it was just c.s. but with a focus multimedia and multimedia interaction.
People joke, that everything with "media" is just a light degree, but the focus was very much on how humans interact with computers ,how humans interact with humans via computers and how the average human engages their work goal via computers.
Not having your user be your sworn enemy and cosplaying as a user helps with creating less shut software in less iteration.
Not having your user be your sworn enemy
That gave me a good laugh, because every dev I've ever worked with sees users this way.
I've been in IT for 25 years.
The hardest, the absolute hardest part about my job is humans. Managers, CIOs, project managers, users, other IT workers...all humans.
The machines do whatever I tell them to do.
It's the humans that ruin everything. I could do the entire technical part of my job in 4 hours a week. And I'm pretty sure most of the other IT workers could do the same.
Egos, bad communication, misunderstandings, disagreements, laziness, short attention spans, power trips, did I mention egos? That's why I have to work a full work week.
It doesn't help that almost all my very non techy POs (product owners) absolutely refused to put even the slightest effort into their tickets. Why acceptance criteria? just make it work!
MAKE WHAT WORK? YOU WROTE "FUNCTIONALITY X BROKEN" AND LEFT THE TICKET ITSELF BLANK!!! I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHICH SERVICE THIS IS ABOUT!
"Works on my machine, closing ticket"
Yes you do. Mobile apps bypass the end user’s ability to block data collection and spying lol
If it helps, tell your boss I hate them and will stop going somewhere rather than install another fucking app.
I never fuck with Unicode or time zones.
time zones
There's only a few falsehoods about time to be aware of:
https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca
On the other hand you have people like the guy I’ve tech-assisted 30 minutes ago who refuse to read a single sentence of the information they are provided. “Click here right?”
I've worked with developers like this. Guys who literally stare at an error message, and then ignore it and start clicking around. Fucking infuriating 😂
It doesn't work
OK, what's the error?
Missing semicolon.
... and what could be the issue, possibly?
A missing semicolon?
Good guess. Now where would you put it?
There?
No, why there? The correct line is even in the compiler error.
Oh, like this?
Yes.
I had this or a similar discussion with my trainee almost twice a day after one year of training. He was incapable of understanding the most basic messages, but his father was a friend of my boss 😑
On the other other hand there are error messages like “That didn’t work [Fuck you].” No info, no further steps no nothing.
Can’t just everyone involved in these processes get fucked?
Got fucked. That didn't work [Fuck you]. No further info.
3: off by one errors.
Had to be said.
Sometimes it really can just be an email though. Just saying.
And look, with AI you can do pair programming while avoiding any of that uncomfortable "team building."
There's a reason why usable security, project management, HCI are a thing
Of course they know human communication is important.
It's the thing you get in the way of for monetization opportunities.
Why can't you just use Microsoft Teams?
The most most most annoying thing for me in the workplace is when someone says "politics" god I want to explode. we are a business, We should do what makes sense for the business not what some random MBA feels will pad his resume. So infuriating.
Human interaction is all politics to varying degrees.
Unless you are an extreme outlier someone at some point will need to interact with someone outside of the business to get the things the business needs.
Unless you are a dictatorship of a business, coming to a consensus on what the business needs is going to require dealing with people.
I agree that politics for personal gain or CV juice is bullshit though.
Being competent should be enough, unfortunately that's not generally how it works, which is also bullshit.
Yep — the hardest bug is always requirements. Clear writing + shared context saves more engineering hours than any new framework.