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I was only gone for a day or two... (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 years ago by PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world to c/memes@lemmy.world
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[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (4 children)

There was a post about making cats vegan. The mod then decided that people posting information on why that is a bad idea were antivegan or something. The mod started then removing any information that pointed to cats not being able to be health while on a vegan diet. The Lemmy.world admins them stepped in stating that improperly feeding your cat constitutes animal abuse and is unethical. This made many die hard vegans very mad.

For the record, cats can not be vegan. They can survive on it but they will have shorter more painful lives and they will go blind. There bodies start breaking down without the proteins and amino acids found in meat. I understand why vegans would be unhappy with that answer but it is the way it is.

Interesting enough, that's not the case for dog. You can put a dog on a vegan diet as long as you are very careful and are constantly monitoring. It isn't for the faint of heart and can have very sad outcomes. It isn't something you can arbitrarily do.

[–] Resonosity@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'm vegan and I don't know why these "vegans" are towing the line to to include non-human species. It's just as gross for vegan humans to apply their values to values in a dominant manner as it is for non-vegans to. Literally vegans doing this is antithesis to the entire cause.

I'm glad they got slapped. You'll always have idiots in a movement I guess...

[–] BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What I don't understand about all of this is the consent aspect: your cat/dog/pet did not consent to a vegan diet, so why are you forcing it on them? Obviously you can't ask your pet what they want for dinner, but left to their own devices, I doubt any of them would choose a vegan diet, so... Why force it on them?

Even ignoring all of the science and everything, morally/ethically, it just feels messed up to me. It'd be like forcing your child to eat food they're allergic to because it's healthier/more ethical, despite it causing health issues for them.

Absolutely wild

[–] erin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't have a dog in this race, but it seems to me the obvious answer to your consent dilemma is "no animal consents to being eaten." I feed my cat a non-vegan diet, for the record. I'm just not pretending that the fish likes it or anything. If a perfectly healthy vegan diet is possible for a cat, which I'm honestly not clear on, then it's definitely ethical to do so.

If you extrapolated the moral dilemma to the extreme, it would be like saying "it's unethical to take the knife away from that serial murderer. He just wants to murder and he didn't consent to stopping!" Obviously, that's a ridiculous comparison, but so is making the consent argument. My point isn't that feeding cats meat is wrong (again, I feed my cat meat), it's that making a consent argument against veganism is silly.

[–] BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

True, no animal consents to being eaten, and I understand veganism is meant to eliminate or mitigate unnecessary animal products from one's diet, but I don't think "no animal consents to being eaten" works here. That's nature (and yes, I'm ignoring that humans are part of nature, despite our best efforts to think we aren't), you can't change nature. You're not going to get a lion or a shark to stop being a carnivorous predator because that's just what they are.

I also don't necessarily agree with your knife argument: a serial killer does not need to kill to survive, whereas living things need to eat to survive. I don't think the consent argument is as ridiculous as that, I would more equate it to an infirm cancer patient being given chemotherapy drugs versus homeopathy treatment. They can't consent to either, but one is clearly meant to try to fix the issue, whereas the other is a personal choice.

Veganism is a personal choice, cats needing meat in their diet is not. I have nothing against veganism, and I appreciate your arguments (I hadn't considered the "not consenting to be eaten" aspect). Idk, to me, people who force their diets/lifestyles onto their pets that aren't equipped for it, it's just... Immoral? I'm blanking on the word, it's been a long week.

[–] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 years ago

animals don't consent to anything, any more than trees or machines. it is absurd to discuss consent from something that can not be informed.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The mod then decided that people posting information on why that is a bad idea were antivegan or something. The mod started then removing any information that pointed to cats not being able to be health while on a vegan diet.

Pets eat pre-processed food, and we've had vegetarian protein supplements for a while. How does this work for cats? Idk, ask a vet. But these foods have been around for a while and I'm not hearing about a mass die-off of indoor cats as a result, so I'm willing to give vegan cat owners the benefit of the doubt.

For the record, cats can not be vegan. They can survive on it but they will have shorter more painful lives and they will go blind.

The expected lifespan of feral cats in the wild runs around 2-5 years. House cats routinely live into their teenage years and can hit north of 20. The ideal lifestyle for a cat is indoors, regardless of the precise composition of their diets.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I think the bug take away is to talk to and listen to a expert. Especially don't start making huge changes to your cats diet

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Vegan owners get new cats all the time. I don't think it's a question of changing the diet, but starting them on it.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's a good way to shorten the cats life and make it suffer terribly. Your car will go a while without an oil change but it will eventually quit on you

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That’s a good way to shorten the cats life and make it suffer terribly.

You've prevented no evidence to support the claim that protein enrichment in cat food will hurt your cat.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

https://www.aspca.org/news/why-cant-my-cat-be-vegan

Also there are people with horror stories as well

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

https://www.benevo.com/vegan-cat-food-from-benevo/

Benevo Cat foods contain all the nutrients an adult cat needs, including a wide range of vitamins (including A, B, D, E, K), essential fatty acids and taurine, without the need for slaughterhouse meat.

...

Benevo Cat is a professional cat food, created by Benevo in 2005, formulated and checked by independent animal nutritionists to meet the AAFCO(USA) and FEDIAF(Europe) guidelines for animal nutrition.

shrug

Looks like they solved this problem 20 years ago.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Disclaimer that I'm not even a vegan but you're spreading disinfo here to make vegans seem completely unreasonable. I suggest anyone check out the actual discussions instead of trusting this summary.

[–] Exatron@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Cats are obligate carnivores, sparky. That means they can't be vegan.

[–] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Show me a scientific study that proves this. If you can say it with confidence, it should be no trouble at all for you to prove it. I, on the other hand, am lazy and don't care all that much, so I want the people confidently stating opinions to share their research to save me effort.

[–] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

A quick search reveals quite a few sources and articles to read. I hope this helps. Not an exhaustive list.

[–] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Those aren't scientific studies. The vegans have scientific studies. You expect me to believe you know better than them, but you can't show me sources of equal quality?

[–] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

One of those is a Wikipedia link which gives you primary sources. 🤔

[–] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Cat food is food specifically formulated and designed for consumption by cats. As obligate carnivores, cats have specific requirements for their dietary nutrients, namely nutrients found only in meat or synthesised, such as taurine and Vitamin A.

Hey look, your Wikipedia link says the nutrients cats need from meat can be synthesised in literally the second sentence.

Vegetarian or vegan cat food has been available for many years, and is targeted primarily at vegan and vegetarian pet owners. While a small percentage of owners choose such a diet based on its perceived health benefits, the majority do so due to ethical concerns, such as about the large environmental impacts of animal agriculture.

[–] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

You also put have the thing where it says they are obligate carnivores in the second sentence of the first paragraph that is cited. I did NOT make those claims just provided you with links for further reading.

Edit: spelling and grammar

[–] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca -1 points 2 years ago

It sounds like you aren't very assured of the validity of your sources in backing up your claims. If you don't believe in your own sources, why are you so confident in your opinions?

[–] KombatWombat@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago

Cats are obligate carnivores in the wild. This just means they have dietary needs that would normally require meat. But we can make vegan, synthetic food that meets these needs. In fact, studies have shown that cats on vegan diets tend to be healthier if anything.

[–] Omniforous@mander.xyz -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

For the record, science disagrees with you. According to an analysis of all current research, there is no statistically significant difference of cat heath when fed a nutritionally sufficient vegan diet. Of there is a similarly high quality study that finds that a nutritionally sufficient vegan diet is worse for cats I would love to see it.

The vegan diet we are talking about isn't a bunch of vegetables, it's a manufactured dry food specifically designed to have all the nutrients a cat needs.

People often use the obligate carnivore excuse, but use it in an unscientific way. Obligate carnivores have nutritional needs that can only be meet through meat in the wild, but humans are perfectly capable of manufacturing these nutrients. We are so good at it that we supplement these synthetic nutrients in meat based cat food already.

This is a contentious issue for most people, and it can be hard when you are very passionate about something to look at the evidence and change your opinion. I've looked at a decent number of studies on the topic recently, and they all seen to point to the conclusion that a diet without meat can be healthy for cats, so long as it contains all the nutrients they need.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You are a danger to animals. Stop believing what you want to believe and look at the research

[–] Omniforous@mander.xyz -1 points 2 years ago

I'm happy to do research. Care to post some academic literature on the subject?

[–] PiousAgnostic@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Intresting paper. It is not the conclusive evidence that you think it is. It's ok, reading science is hard.

Paper concluded that the vegan diet did not seem to have adverse effects, but they had a very small sample size and the expiriment went on for a very short duration.

And then they site scientific papers that disagree with their findings. So there definitely is science out there that disagrees with the vegan diet being ok.

[–] Neon@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

a bit less aggressive please and then this comment is almost perfect

[–] PiousAgnostic@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Nah I matched the tone of who I was responding to.

[–] Neon@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

true true, but:

An eye for an eye...

If you don't want a toxic internet, it's on us to start it

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Vegans argued that cats, which are obligate carnivores, can eat a vegan diet safely. Lemmy.world admin removed the posts for being misinformation, and the vegan community threw a fit over it.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I really hate how many people are spreading disinfo for no reason here. We should be better than that.

The vegans stated very clearly that current science shows that the cat would need a fuckton of supplements and attention to be on a vegan diet but it's functional.

The admins then overstepped and removed such comments.

I'm not going to argue the validity of any of those claims as I'm not a vegan and I don't care to research, but the vegan mods were a lot more reasonable than they're being painted here.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The pet sector must die, pet ownership isn’t vegan, pet breeders are the enemies;

We’re not doing “optimal nutrition”, sorry. That biohacking shit to create immortal adopted pets isn’t going to work out. It’s hardly even clear for humans what the optimal diet is, and they pretend that they know what it is for cats??? These fools don’t even comprehend that evolution doesn’t give a shit about longevity. It’s a standard imposed by the marketing agencies of pet foods who want to milk pet owner feelings to have their pets die after they do. It’s a false standard that is great for advertising, but otherwise functions as a Nirvana fallacy machine.

This is just a rephrase, but pet ownership is bourgeois. Well, aristocratic, then bourgeois. Detach. This isn’t about you, you don’t get to annex a sentient being just to keep them as an emotional service slave or as a status symbol. This one is especially for Americans where pets live better than poor people.

Uh. Hardly reasonable.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Are you just posting a random comment to me or what? What relevance does this have to the admin retaliations?

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's one of the Vegan mods on .world expressing their views on vegan diets for cats. That's not "The vegans stated very clearly that current science shows that the cat would need a fuckton of supplements and attention to be on a vegan diet but it’s functional.", that's outright "Science doesn't know shit" lunacy.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's not the comment which caused this whole issue. It seems to me you're cherry picking out of context

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Alright, since "Things the mods have said" isn't acceptable evidence for whether or not the mods are pushing ridiculous views on vegan diets for cats, and not just "The vegans stated very clearly that current science shows that the cat would need a fuckton of supplements and attention to be on a vegan diet but it’s functional", I suppose them saying the ASPCA doesn't know what they're talking about, while THEIR simple 'common sense' allows them to understand a cat's TRUE dietary needs is also kosher?

This whole thing comes down to aggressively anti-scientific mods pushing misinformation and removing information to the contrary and getting removed by an admin for their troubles. Or was removing the link to the ASPCA for being 'misinformation' also a sign of how reasonable the c/Vegan mods were?

I don't give a single solitary fuck what happens to Rooki. Whether they were too quick to remove or too uncivil or what. But defending misinformation, or defending mods pushing misinformation as just being reasonable? That gets my dander up.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The commentary you're pointing is way more reasonable than you make it sound. I implore people to read the context themselves and not to trust summaries with rage bait agendas here.

Stop doing the reddit thing. Making people angry at people more radical than them isn't helping.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

The commentary you’re pointing is way more reasonable than you make it sound.

No, it's just politely worded. That's not reasonable. That's civility politics.

I implore people to read the context themselves and not to trust summaries with rage bait agendas here.

I agree. They absolutely should read the context, and the modlog.

Stop doing the reddit thing. Making people angry at people more radical than them isn’t helping.

Should people... not be angry at those who spread misinformation and suppress actual information to the contrary? Is there a 'get out of jail free' card you get once you get radical enough that permits you to spread misinformation, no moral qualms necessary? Whether they're 'more radical' or less shouldn't fucking matter, even assuming such a linear evaluation was valid.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I haven't seen them try to push misinfo. If anything, I've seen them post scientific articles supporting their claims and accepting that it's an imperfect solution for an imperfect world.

And yes, very radical people will have some radical fucking takes. Y'all are using this as a foothold to promote generalize anti-vegan hate in this thread. There's no nuance anymore, just bashing.

And yes, just trying to make people angry by painting all vegans as "let's feed our cats veggies, YOLO" when their approach was way more careful and nuanced, is fucked up

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I haven’t seen them push misinfo.

I literally quoted one of them.

If anything, I’ve seen them post scientific articles supporting their claims and accepting that it’s an imperfect solution for an imperfect world.

You literally saw them remove articles to the contrary in the link provided.

And yes, very radical people will have some radical fucking takes.

Oh, okay, that's alright then, if they're radical, then they're allowed to have dangerous takes and spread misinformation without pushback. Pack it up everyone, let's go home!

And before you try "I didn't say there shouldn't be pushback", let me reiterate that this started because the c/Vegan mods removed an ASPCA link and argument they didn't like.

Y’all are using this as a foothold to promote generalize anti-vegan hate in this thread. There’s no nuance anymore, just bashing.

Some vegan bashing in highly upvoted comments:

For the record, cats can not be vegan. They can survive on it but they will have shorter more painful lives and they will go blind. There bodies start breaking down without the proteins and amino acids found in meat. I understand why vegans would be unhappy with that answer but it is the way it is.

Interesting enough, that’s not the case for dog. You can put a dog on a vegan diet as long as you are very careful and are constantly monitoring. It isn’t for the faint of heart and can have very sad outcomes. It isn’t something you can arbitrarily do.

Until I joined Lemmy I had no idea how militant vegans could be. I sorta just assumed they were a different brand of vegetarian.

I’m not opposed to their ideaology in any way, but after reading the comments on a few posts that found their way into my feed… I had to block their communities. It didn’t seem likely that I’d be reading any productive discourse there.

It’s so sad, because veganism is a good force in our culture. Look at all of the vegan meat alternatives and more and more restaurants that have to have at least vegetarian options in certain areas. That wasn’t a thing 20 years ago.

Remember you’re only seeing the very online vegan.

Whoah whoah whoah. Let’s chill with the general fuck vegans statement. Most vegans are just people. Now the psycho vegans who try to make their cats eat vegan. Fuck those people. But broad statements like “fuck this group” tend to stick in people’s heads and promote undeserved hate. “Fuck the Nazi’s”? Yeah. “Fuck Germans”? No.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Sorry mate, but there's no point in talking to you anymore. All you do is trying to ragebait and win the internet argument and there's no point in wasting time on that.

I repeat that people should look for themselves in the discussions the vegans had in public and in their own threads where they didn't have to be so defensive and adversarial in the face of rando hate. If you're interested, see for yourselves whether they were unscientific or not but please don't trust summaries like these who just want to make you dismiss radicals vegans without further thought.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Sorry mate, but there’s no point in talking to you anymore. All you do is trying to ragebait and it’s not gonna work on me.

You first claimed that they were being reasonable; when faced with clear evidence of the mods having very unreasonable positions on vegan cat diets and on scientific evidence more generally, you shifted to the claim that the mods being unreasonable wasn't the source of the issue (and was thus irrelevant); when presented with evidence of the mods putting up that selfsame unreasonable argument in the thread in dispute, you said it wasn't misinfo and was scientifically supported; and now that it's been pointed out that scientific information to the contrary was deliberately removed in that very comment thread by the mods pushing their view which, by both the material of the argument (appeal to common sense) and context, was founded on deeply unscientific positions, you say that all of that is well and fine, but people in this thread are just using it as an excuse to hate on vegans; when I display that the most upvoted comments in this thread are far from hating on vegans, you decry me as engaging in 'ragebait'.

You've come in determined to defend the c/Vegan mods, and the realities of the situation be damned. It's a reflexive reaction, and it's bullshit, and it deserves to be called out as much.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 2 years ago

Are you done grandstanding? or should I get you a medal as well? It's ok, you can now have the last word.

[–] mihnt@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

This topic touches a very soft spot in my heart as I've had to watch a cat die from being forced on a vegan diet. I've seen the results, and it is so very sad. Keep your goddamn morals out of other's lives. Especially an animal that has no say in the matter. Fuck vegans.

[–] 2001aCentenaryofFederation@fedia.io 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah I see no difference between militant pro-lifers and militant vegans. You don’t get a say in how I choose to interpret the information presented to me. But if you want to teach me things I didn’t know before or hadn’t considered I’m happy to listen. Just don’t tell me my choices are morally reprehensible when they’re my choices

[–] Teppichbrand@feddit.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's not just your choices alone, you're ignoring something here: If the animal whose death you pay for every day could speak, it would object. If it could defend itself, it would fight against its death. It wants to go on living just like you. But you kill it anyway, against its will, because you can, because the animal is innocent and because you simply like it's taste.
In addition to this violence, animal agriculture is also causing great damage to our planet, so your personal choice affects the lifes of other people, living and yet to be born as well. I can hardly think of any parallels to the pro-lifers.

[–] 2001aCentenaryofFederation@fedia.io -1 points 2 years ago

If the ~~animal~~feotus whose death you pay for every day could speak, it would object. If it could defend itself, it would fight against its death. It wants to go on living just like you. But you kill it anyway, against its will, because you can, because the ~~animal~~fetus is innocent

I can hardly think of any parallels to the pro-lifers.

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