That's cuz it's literally in our textbooks. In highschool my history teacher elected to do a unit on Israel. The textbooks skipped right over zionist militia terrorizing communities and creating the initial wave of refugees that eventually ended up on the Gaza strip.

The textbooks paint Israel as defending themselves when they militarily occupied Palestinian communities and the Arab states intervened. They made it seem like the Arab states attacked Israel for simply existing and not to stop literal fucking war crimes.

Than there's the Judeo-Christian element where some religious folk parrot "God's Chosen People!" and they give them carte blanche, taxpayer dollars, and unholy amounts of firepower.

...

Also AFAICT there's no common denominator as to who in the Jewish community denounces zionism or supports it. Maybe I'm just not intrenched enough to hear the consensus pushback that I'm sure exists on the tabernacle level; and I do refrain from demanding an answer from Jewish people cuz I think that's wrong. But its a 50/50 for who is willing to denounce zionism and who seems to have bought into the propaganda.

[–] Rat_in_a_hat@lemmy.ca 1 points 10 minutes ago* (last edited 8 minutes ago)

Maybe I'm just not intrenched enough to hear the consensus pushback that I'm sure exists on the tabernacle level; and I do refrain from demanding an answer from Jewish people cuz I think that's wrong. But its a 50/50 for who is willing to denounce zionism and who seems to have bought into the propaganda.

I think, unfortunately, that in Canada the ratio is more 70/30 with majority supporting Zionism, while the US is closer to 50/50.

Historically and preceding WW2, Jewish immigrants preferred going to the US - Canada had a nasty habit of turning Jews away (even during and after the holocaust). The existinf US Jewish population managed to grow and create a culture that was very separate from what Zionism started to build in the late 19th/early 20th century in Europe.

Because Canada's Jewish population grew up with Zionist ideology being relevant to a great degree, the ratio is more skewed.

Like the other user said, anti-zionist Jewish voices in Canada are lacking in institutions and numbers especially in comparison to the US. They exist and need to be supported as well.

[–] GreenBeard@lemmy.ca 4 points 54 minutes ago (1 children)

Also AFAICT there’s no common denominator as to who in the Jewish community denounces zionism or supports it. Maybe I’m just not intrenched enough to hear the consensus pushback that I’m sure exists on the tabernacle level; and I do refrain from demanding an answer from Jewish people cuz I think that’s wrong. But its a 50/50 for who is willing to denounce zionism and who seems to have bought into the propaganda.

AFAIK there's a lot of diaspora Jews who are deeply against Israel right now, but they tend to lack the institutional organization and infrastructure of the hardcore zionists. Quite frankly I think the best thing we can do is make sure to offer to elevate the voices of dissent and help them build a platform for Anti-zionist Jews. Conflating opposition to Israel's genocides with antisemitism is itself blood libel and the best way to push back on that narrative is to make it clear we stand with those Jews who oppose all forms of genocide, including those wrought by Jewish hands.

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 3 points 38 minutes ago

To be clear I'm not suggesting 50% of jews support Zionism. I would be surprised and horrified if that were the case.

In my experience Jews are like Catholics. Unless they're visibly catholic is really hard to determine where they fall on any individual issue.

I think about the South Park scene where they ask Mrs. Broslowski about her views on Gaza to win a prediction market bet, but then end up offending her. One of the best B-plots in the show honestly.

So I have not bothered to ask because in general I only associate with people who have basic empathy anyways so I'd be reaching pretty far outside my circles to learn anything new.

[–] orioler25@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

Canadians have supported Israeli genocide of Palestinians pretty much since the beginning (there are many cases of Jewish communities in Canada raising money to send to Israel as early as the 1920s). There is certainly nuance in how and why groups in Canada come to support it, but the Canadian state does first and foremost because Israel is another settler-colonial state and Canada must protect Israel's right to commit genocide to ensure its own right to continue its genocide of First Nations and indigenous peoples of Turtle Island. This was of course only exacerbated by the wave of Islamophobia precipitated through the US imperialist campaigns in the Middle-East and Central Asia (which the Canadian state also supported, of course). Portrayals of Israel as a legitimate and moral polity in Canadian education curricula have predictably received very little opposition until quite recently, when the genocide took on a particularly visible phase following 2023.

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Israel is another settler-colonial state and Canada must protect Israel's right to commit genocide to ensure its own right to continue its genocide of First Nations

AKA The Truth Canadians don't want to Reconcile.

[–] orioler25@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Yes, which is why it's so important that we don't exceptionalize Zionists as a hate-group in Canada; it is something facilitated through the same system Canada participates in and enforces. The only reason liberals here are comfortable doing that now is they recognize that the popular opinion has shifted and they want to salvage the underlying morality and settler-colonial philosophy by constructing Zionism as anomalously violent and racist.

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I get what you're saying but IMO its misguided.

Zionism in Canada is not the same as zionism in the Israeli regime. Its effect is fundamentally generating hatred towards Palestinians vs enacting hate.

If exposing Israel's colonialism leads people to normalize colonialism than you're fighting a losing battle to begin with. Israel shines a mirror on Canada that is necessary for Canadians to see in order accept the truth.

Now if you're saying it's lip service done at the opportunity cost of something more effective, I'm all ears. But as to your first point I don't see a negative to calling Zionism a hate-group.

[–] orioler25@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

I think you misunderstand what "exceptionalize" means in this use. Exceptionalizing means that something is defined as deviant with either a positive or negative connotation, or in other words, that its traits are constructed as exclusive to it rather than as typical of whatever group that the exceptioanlized thing belongs to.

To exceptionalize Zionism as a hate-group would be to say that it is unusual in its motivations and tactics compared to settler-colonial states and politics generally as well as other hate groups. Zionism in Canada is very much enacting genocide in its moblization of sympathetic groups within Canada and influence on the investment and funding policies of institutions within Canada as well as the Canadian state; which again, directly supports Israel's genocide of Palestinians. I'm not saying that Zionism should not be classified as a hate group or discussed as a hate group, since its subscribers do have specific political intentions and interests, but that we cannot exceptionalize the racist, genocidal politics of Zionists as anomalous or deviant from Canadian politics or from white supremacy. There is a misconception that Israel is somehow hyperbolic in its violence, even though its methods and effects are comparable to that of the US and Canada, and any white supremacist groups within them. Canada is a white supremacist state, despite incidental and periodic protections for racialized peoples, but considers overtly white supremacist groups as hate groups as it allows the state to define white supremacy by the image of those hate groups, not its underlying philosophy and historical processes.

The reason Canadians are only willing to recognize Zionism as genocidal once its violence became undeniable during the most documented genocidal campaign in human history is exactly because that immorality is now obvious in the same way that white supremacist militias within Canada and the US are obviously immoral. The overtness of that violence allows the liberal state to construct its softer, more gradual tactics as something completely distinct from genocide or racism. A great example of why this is so important is the fact that Hamas is already defined as a terrorist group in the Criminal Code, which was recently amended through Bill C-9 to define hate as, "as an emotion of an intense and extreme nature that is clearly associated with vilification and detestation." Therefore, any equivalency between these "hate groups" would mean that the politics of Zionists and Palestinian resistance are equivalent, "both sides are bad because they are exceptionally violent and express hatred for another group," which hardly describes the power differential between those groups as well as the sympathy that the Canadian state has for only one of those groups and why.

Hope that explains it better.

~ source for quote: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/pl/c9/index.html

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 1 points 48 minutes ago

Okay fair point. Now I see what you're saying.

IMO the real reason young people are recognizing colonialism is because we're in late stage colonialism (on a global scale) and if it wasn't this generation it would be whichever future generation came of age during capitalism breaching insolvency. The economy has people experiencing the shoe on the other foot for the first time. That's what's breaking the spell. Not exposure to semantically accurate facts.

IMO a false equivalence between Hamas/Zionists won't convince people that Israel bombing hospitals and the USA bombing schools is where we want our tax dollars going.

Cuz that is the core of the issue. Canadian tax payers are funding this. Way I see it the more top of mind that fact is the better.

[–] saltesc@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago

and unholy amounts of firepower.

I guess it would be holy though

[–] rozodru@piefed.world 8 points 3 hours ago (2 children)

yup just go to North York in Toronto. Hell the other week 10k zionists had a little parade for themselves with FULL police escort/protection. Proudly marching on and cheering the genocide of the Palestinian people.

Police mobile units/trailers outside their schools? better believe it. wouldn't want the zionists children harmed due to their parents actions. no other school has that.

[–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 3 points 1 hour ago

I leisure walk around Toronto a lot. I've definitely noticed that every pro-Israel event has a MASSIVE police presence outside. Half the time I think it's some sort of emergency at first from a distance.

[–] kibblebits@quokk.au 3 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

What was the parade for?

[–] rozodru@piefed.world 7 points 2 hours ago

it's for Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walk_with_Israel it's a pro-israel walk. they've been doing it for decades.

[+] adespoton@lemmy.ca -11 points 3 hours ago (4 children)

I wouldn’t call it a hate movement; it’s too inward-focused.

But like with any ultranationalist movement, it’s definitely heavily leveraged by those wanting to use it for their own hate-driven agenda. The two go hand in hand, but aren’t quite the same thing — dealing with each needs a slightly different approach, and getting rid of one won’t get rid of the other. THIS is the reason not to just label the entire zionist movement as hate/intolerance-driven Jewish supremacy. It’s only the diving board. Take it away and they’ll find something else.

[–] Rat_in_a_hat@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 minutes ago* (last edited 5 minutes ago)

You should probably read a few lines from Jabotinsky (a popular Zionist Nationalist). He uses blood and land tropes a lot.

[–] IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world 6 points 2 hours ago

therefore, white supremacists aren't a hate group, as they are focused on white people...

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 10 points 3 hours ago

I have yet to meet a zionist who wasn't actively dehumanizing Palestinians to justify their worldview.

[–] orioler25@lemmy.ca 8 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

Nationalism (no, not "ultranationalism") is fundamentally hateful in its arbitrary assignment of an idealized group of people with a natural right to land. Zionism has been oriented around Palestinian dispossession and erasure since its emergence in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries, there is no "inward-focused" element here that somehow doesn't make it an international ideological movement in Canada (which is also a genocidal, settler-colonial state with an interest in protecting Israel's right to commit genocide). There aren't any especially naughty Zionists that make the movement look bad, it is fundamentally a genocidal endeavour the same way every settler-colonial state is.

I really hope you have at least one reading on any of these topics to recommend since you're making some pretty incredible claims here that defy most historical and decolonial scholarship on them.