this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2026
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[–] joe@lemmy.world 38 points 5 hours ago (10 children)

I generally respect this guy's opinion (I probably use the term "enshitification" multiple times a week!), but pretending that "AI" and "Chabot" are interchangeable terms seems wildly reductive, and the subtle presumption that the process of changing is a binary changed/non-changed situation instead of a curve is just ignorant.

If the internet was "turned off" after 4 or so years not much would have changed, either.

[–] non_burglar@lemmy.world 13 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Corey Doctorow isn't speaking to you, he's speaking to the many, many people who have been fooled by the ai craze.

[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 4 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

And often I wonder, how many people have been fooled, and how much of the enthusiasm and over the top fantasy is astroturfing by a few people incentivized to sway public opinion?

[–] TheLegendaryAssholeOfJushinLiger@sh.itjust.works -2 points 34 minutes ago* (last edited 33 minutes ago)

And how much of the doomerism is a campaign to keep the common man from using a revolutionary tool for, well, revolution, by alienating those most likely to do revolutionary things with it?

Once you look at the actual numbers for pollution, water usage, etc it becomes very clear that the issues are vastly overstated. So, why?

[–] mushroommunk@lemmy.today 77 points 5 hours ago (2 children)

To the average person (and this includes politicians, basically anyone not a software engineer developing the tools )who Cory generally writes to try and inform, they are the same.

Should they be? No. But that's a whole different thing and trying to change that in the general public mind doesn't change his current point about AI as the public thinks of it right now.

[–] joe@lemmy.world 8 points 5 hours ago (4 children)

Speaking at the level of your target audience is wise, but there is a point where information is not just simplfied, but lost, and I think equating chat bots with AI in the broader sense is past that point. It would be like equating websites with the internet.

[–] raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world 19 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

I think the comparison is acceptable with maybe a terminology clarification in the footnotes, because "AI" is the false term under which this current bullshit is being marketed.

And people who believe the core mechanism in large language models to be AI are so uneducated that they will probably neither understand the distinction to legitimate AI research, nor bother to read footnotes.

[–] TheLegendaryAssholeOfJushinLiger@sh.itjust.works 0 points 32 minutes ago* (last edited 32 minutes ago)

And people who believe the core mechanism in large language models to be AI

What does that mean? Transformers aren't AI? What? I don't think you understand this as much as you think you do.

[–] StupidBrotherInLaw@lemmy.world 7 points 3 hours ago

That's exactly the thing. Those who understand such a footnote don't need it, and those who might learn more from it are unlikely to understand it. The above commenters are simply being pedantic.

[–] CmdrShepard49@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 hours ago

Is equating chatbots with AI any different than equating a bunch of if/else statements with AI? Is any of this AI considering none of it involves actual intelligence or informed decision making?

Sure AI is more than LLMs, but those are the face of it in the public's eye and is what's driving these trillion dollar corporate valuations, which then lead to every company on earth declaring that their product is "AI!"

[–] idiomaddict@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

As a non-techie: websites are the internet.

Like, I conceptualize the internet as basically just a giant shared network, but the point of it is the websites (for me).

I apologize to anyone I may have just gravely offended.

[–] joe@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I apologize to anyone I may have just gravely offended.

lol

I don't know how "non-techie" you are, but a good example is online games. When you're playing Fortnite, Roblox, World of Warcraft, etc you're not going to a web page, but you're on the internet.

[–] idiomaddict@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I straight up almost called it a series of tubes, lol.

Yeah, that’s probably why I do think of it as a shared network, I just don’t play online games, so that’s not what I associate with the internet.

[–] joe@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

There are other examples but I take your point.

[–] XLE@piefed.social 4 points 3 hours ago

What's lost? I can't think of anything.

Words are meant to convey meaning, and I bet you would lose a lot of non-technical people if you tried to explain the intricacies of what makes large language models worse than content recommendation systems, and doing this would be redundant for technical users.

So Corey can safely use the two words interchangeably and communicate with technical and non-technical alike.

[–] A_norny_mousse@piefed.zip 3 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

If the internet was “turned off” after 4 or so years not much would have changed, either.

That's a questionable statement that may reflect on your main argument. After all, when was the Internet "switched on"? Sounds very binary to me.

[–] joe@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

To be clear, Doctorow discussed switching off AI and proposed that there would be little to no change on the world. I was just changing the technology to show the flaw in the stance.

[–] dan@upvote.au 5 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

I generally respect this guy's opinion (I probably use the term "enshitification" multiple times a week

A lot of people don't use it the way he used it though. He used it specifically for two sided markets (eg a service that has both business and personal users) where the focus shifts to the business customers, but people have started using it to mean anything that used to be good but isn't good any more.

[–] disorderly@lemmy.world 42 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I think you're making a strawman argument here. He isn't arguing that it's a binary switch that has failed to throw, he's arguing that we don't have compelling evidence that the ends justify the means:

In other words, corporate leadership is starting from the premise that AI has (or will) radically change the business, and they're working backwards from that premise to find the evidence to support this article of faith.

And this is completely true! Supposedly "data informed" organizations are trying to find a yardstick that shows actual, meaningful improvement in business outcomes from AI. In my own organization we have people touting LOC yet again because "big number", but anyone who's ever worked in software can tell you it's an asinine metric to use as a KPI.

It's inherently unscientific to start with the answer and work backwards to a satisfactory question. His point that this push is coming from the least knowledgeable of real processes- and more closely resembles religious fervor than business acumen- seems to at least warrant consideration.

[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 2 points 3 hours ago

"Chatbot" style AI is wildly good and bad at varying kinds of tasks, and a lot of that has to do with how it has been prepared.

Some LLMs have been trained to make images - I've not been too impressed with them, but that's what they're "good" at - and better than the LLMs that have been trained to write computer code when you ask the coding LLMs to draw a picture.

The code writing LLMs have actually improved the most at reviewing code over the past 8-9 months, and that ability to review their own code makes them dramatically better at writing code as well.

I find Google Gemini to be pretty impressive at scanning laws and regulations and finding, not creative, but functional solutions to stated problems within the constraints of (often frustratingly bizarre) legal structures.

And all of them will lie to you, tell you what a great idea you have, etc. They're not really lying, they're mostly just taking what they read at face value without checking corroborating sources enough to find the obvious (to you) blunders. If you want the LLM to be sure, ask it to go on the RAG (Research Augmented Generation) - check everything before saying it, they can do that, especially "paid mode" engines, but it reduces their capacity for analysis of complex problems by 3-10x, because they're spending so much context window "being sure" - you can alternatively spend 3-10x as long solving complex problems / accomplishing complex tasks if you have them do their homework, verify everything from "the best" available sources 3x and build up a local document set of "trusted information" which is used in preference to whatever it might find at random on the internet. This isn't as sexy as "Hey Claude, code me up a database that does X Y Z" and getting the result in 30 seconds, but it is how professionals have been doing their jobs for centuries: learn reliable information first, then act on it.

[–] Flower@sh.itjust.works 5 points 4 hours ago

“AI” and “Chabot” are interchangeable

In the same way that most people if you say you'll take them to their destination with your vehicle, they assume in your car and not on the back of your bicycle, although both are technically correct.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago

I think it's a worthy simplification that sums up the current state of things well. We have AI that broadly has different uses and then we have the ChatBot/ChatBot derived AI applications. The market is not going insane over the broader AI category. Executives are not tripping over themselves to say things like machine vision is going to replace all labor, or at least all white collar labor. The chatbot is the only thing in the conversation of consequence.

All the "everyone says AI is the reality, so everyone feels like they must say AI is the reality" refers to this specific category. It might be veering towards being oversimplified, but it's trying to balance a perspective that is also oversimplified. Generally, we aren't good at weighing simple straightforward takes against complex nuanced takes, so you have to "net it out" to have any hope of the point landing.

[–] Zamboni_Driver@lemmy.ca 3 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Pretending AI and Chatbot are interchangeable is a marketing strategy by the companies who make these advanced chat bots. "They are artificially intelligent bro".

[–] joe@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago

I don't disagree that the term AI has shifted significantly in the last 4 years or so, but I was actually meaning it in the other direction, as in, there is more to generative AI (what people are calling "AI" these days) than just chat bots.

[–] sepi@piefed.social -1 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Oh look it's arbitrary-narrow-definition-that-fits-the-argument-I-want-to-make man!

[–] joe@lemmy.world 3 points 3 hours ago

Oh look it's arbitrary-narrow-definition-that-fits-the-argument-I-want-to-make man!

I'm saying there's more to generative AI than chatbots. My definition of AI is broader. What are you going on about?