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Ok this is gonna be risky so please read and undertsand i'm not coming from a milicious place. I've always looked at nationalistic pride on a similar plane as LGTB Pride. Alot of folks did not respect their right to exist and want the culture removed from the earth. Same with the Poles, Romanians, Irish, Ukrainians etc. The Pride is often fu** you people or countries that want me and my people dead!!! Were here, we deserve to be and we are gonna be loud about it!!! Sorry if im off swilt.
I agree with this, but I think we should have some kind of linguistic distinction between pride as in ‘I’m proud I’m not one of those inferior people’ and pride as in ‘I am not ashamed of my heritage’. Because having one word being used both ways has led to people with wildly diverging interpretations of the same sentence.
I didn't even consider the first one to exist and was briefly upset at George for saying people shouldn't be proud/accepting of their base characteristics, but what you say makes sense of it for me.
A potentially mind-blowing thing that really drives this point home:
Obama is half-black and half-white (black father and white mother). He’s often and comfortably claimed to be the first black president, but never referred to as a white president, though he’s equally both.
Some races and ethnicities have historically been considered as subtractive, and this is the often unconsidered evil of ethnic or cultural allegiance.
Then why are billionaires proud of their wealth when they were already born into it?
I think an American Indian who is proud of keeping their cultural identity alive when countless others were lost to genocide has more right to pride than rich people who lord their meaningless "accomplishments" over others.
There is a utility in having some national pride, in the same way as there is in having some pride in your place of residence. If you feel some pride for your home, you are more likely to invest time and resources in caring for and improving it. If you don't care about your home you are unlikely to put any effort into taking care of it.
Nothing is quite as long-term damaging to a nation as convincing its own people to think poorly of it.
Personally I think a fair amount of the damage that the US is doing to itself now is a result of foreign influence campaigns repeatedly targeting the US's worst international blunders. These criticisms are valid and true, but they are not the entire truth and the selective lense is intentional.
A common response to self-loathing is a defensive, reactionary display of narcissism.
If you don't care about your home you are unlikely to put any effort into taking care of it.
You're conflating care and pride. There's a very rational reason for caring about one's own home, and that's the fact that you live there.
Nothing is quite as long-term damaging to a nation as convincing its own people to think poorly of it.
Uh... examples? I'm pretty sure we've seen more of the opposite, where rampant nationalism or similar leads societies to disaster.
Personally I think a fair amount of the damage that the US is doing to itself now is a result of foreign influence campaigns repeatedly targeting the US's worst international blunders.
Evidence?
You're conflating care and pride.
No, I'm connecting them. That's the point. I did not say that they were the same thing. Rather, that one motivates the other.
There's a very rational reason for caring about one's own home
Rational is all well and good, but it doesn't motivate people in the same way that emotional attachment does. You can't argue someone into or out of an emotion with good reason.
I'm pretty sure we've seen more of the opposite, where rampant nationalism or similar leads societies to disaster.
My point is that rampant nationalism (the national form of narcissism) is an outward symptom of self-loathing. You're making my argument for me.
Personally I think a fair amount of the damage that the US is doing to itself now is a result of foreign influence campaigns repeatedly targeting the US's worst international blunders.
Evidence?
If I had direct evidence of the conclusion, I would not have begun with the qualifier "Personally I think". Do you generally struggle with reading comprehension?
I can point to evidence that Russia in particular has a pattern of sowing division within target countries in order to destabilize them, usually followed by political or military pressure of some kind:
https://thewalrus.ca/the-russian-money-behind-albertas-separatist-movement/
Russia has used social media to destabilize former Soviet states such as Ukraine and Western nations such as France and Spain. It has been suggested that since 2019, Russian-sponsored troll accounts and bots have formed and taken over prominent left-wing and right-wing subreddits on Reddit, such as the antiwar, greenandpleasant, and aboringdystopia subreddits, "suggest[ing] a Russian-led attempt to antagonize and influence Americans online, which is still ongoing." Canadian subreddits have also been directly targeted by Russia.
Russia's numerous disinformation attacks including support for white supremacist activities and attacks of Biden's mental fitness were utilized by Donald Trump, senior Trump Administration officials, and his re-election campaign.
The Washington Post reported in April 2024 that the Russian foreign ministry was using disinformation to weaken Western countries, in particular the United States. The document was said to be the first official confirmation of such policies and The Washington Post observed Russian attempts to disrupt American and European domestic politics. It also said this was done to shift the balance of power to Russia and other Second World countries such as China, Iran, and North Korea. The Guardian reported Russia was seeking to spread conspiracy theories among the American far right to undermine support for Ukraine. Voice of America reported that Russian disinformation campaigns have focused on promoting American isolationism, tensions between various races as well as border security concerns. The Telegraph reported that Russia and China were promoting pro-Palestinian influencers in order to manipulate British public opinion in favor of Russian and Chinese interests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_disinformation
This is standard practice for Russian foreign policy - essentially astroturfing on social media to create social disruption.
It's the last thing you can be proud of, if you have nothing else.
You think I should be proud more of having a hairy ass?
Eat shit Lee Greenwood and go fuck yourself.
Have you ever been to a cultural parade, even when you're not part of that culture? They are so fun, especially if you're only being accepted as the culture for a day or so. Some cultures are much more family oriented too, so they're going to understand each other and rise above most things together. I get it.
I feel like you can take pride in your country when your country does good things. Lately I’ve felt all of zero pride in my country.. :(
It does feel like if you switched the nouns to be black/Mexican/gay/trans this would read as hate speech.
I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but this feels like the kind of railing against "identity politics," that your crazy uncle spouts off at Thanksgiving.
Queer pride comes from a place of resilience in hate—that we keep on being, existing, thriving, even though there’s legislation and bad faith arguments and assholes and propaganda that undermines and demeans us.
Irish is literally the first example Carlin lists and we lived with Britain spending 800 years trying to make us stop being Irish. Still can't work with Brits without hearing casual slurs and stereotypes, but if Carlin had one blind spot it was his own privilege. A reminder he was human after all.
Same thing could be said about a lot of nationalities, especially nations without a state, or captive under a hostile or indifferent one.
Palestinian pride is a real thing, and I hope they endure.
That makes sense, but I do have follow-on questions. Genuinely asking, not trying to be antagonistic.
Would you then say that gay pride is ridiculous in a nation that doesn't have issues with hating gay people? Like, in a well run country where homophobia/transphobia is marginalized out, should gay pride be viewed the same as having Irish pride?
The argument against that in my mind would be that it's honoring the work of the people who came before who had to deal with historical bigotry. But I feel like the counter to that would be the Irish, in that they also had to deal with systematic bigotry in this country. We're not so far gone from "No Irish Need Apply," and people having to change their names to hide their Irish ancestry to find jobs.
A nation will always have issues with homophobia, because even if it’s not an enshrined position, it’s something that its constituent citizens can sometimes believe in.
I live in Portland, Oregon, and I deal with transphobia all the damn time. And yet I’m explicitly protected by the law, which doesn’t mean all that much at the end of the day.
Hence, trans pride.